Judge orders Colorado baker to serve gay couples

[Menassa]

Exactly.

What do you mean exactly?

Is being sexually attracted to an animal natural? Yes. Is it normal? No.

Is being sexually attracted to a member of the same sex natural? Yes. Is it normal? Yes.

Questions?

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

[Al-Yamaniyyah]

Ethyl doesn't the civil rights act prevent discrimination in businesses that offer the public services?

[Vareiln]

What do you mean exactly?

Is being sexually attracted to an animal natural? Yes. Is it normal? No.

Is being sexually attracted to a member of the same sex natural? Yes. Is it normal? Yes.

Questions?

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

I guess it could be said to be. *Shrug*
It's not socially acceptable, but I suppose it's natural.

[Blekksprutia]

computer messed up post, so repost >.<

This thread has been up for what, five days? Over a cake?

Here's my two cents on the whole issue.

I find it absolutely disgusting that people tear families apart in the name of "family values." I find it highly disturbing that good people aren't allowed to love each other and be bonded for life because of their genders. I find it tragic that open minds are regularly shut and locked by a two-thousand year old book and two-thousand year old prejudices. I believe the only hate there should be is hate towards hate, and I believe that, although people say homosexuality goes against nature, the real thing that goes against nature is ostracizing people for love. Love is love, and all love is sacred.

I also think that they should have just gotten their cake from another baker.

[Al-Yamaniyyah]

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

I guess it could be said to be. *Shrug*
It's not socially acceptable, but I suppose it's natural.

but you cannot marry an animal as it cannot give consent. Nor is it a citizen.

[Swedish Realm]

Not at all there is no such thing as a "White Cake" and that is different than sexual orientation, so to all of you....stop using race as an analogy for sexual orientation. Anyway, the belief of gay marriage obviously violates his religion, giving him right to deny serving them a WEDDING cake.

Except for the fact that marriage between two dogs also violates his religious beliefs and he was willing to sell a wedding cake for that purpose. Also you never explained what constitutes a wedding cake. Would he be within his rights to refuse to serve them a tiered cake because it is too "wedding like"?

My family has always referred to vanilla cake as white cake... Maybe it's a local thing? My point still stands, you can't refuse to sell someone a specific product, be it for weird racial reasons, religious reasons, or otherwise, any more then you can refuse to sell them anything at all.

Since you don't like my chocolate cake analogy, let's pick another analogy. Suppose I go into a video game store and grab a copy of Grand Theft Auto. The business owner then snatches the game from me and says I can buy any of the "girl games" but he's not going to sell me GTA because it's "not meant for girls." By your argument this would be okay since he is willing to sell me video games, just not games meant for men.

What the hell is this? Dogs do not get married. And GTA is meant for all, my sister has played the game plenty of times. That is far too out as well, that would be sexism an games are meant for a whole crowd, men just seem to prefer these games due to their testosterone.

[Erothin]

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

I guess it could be said to be. *Shrug*
It's not socially acceptable, but I suppose it's natural.

As humans are animals...
But yeah, I don't know if I'd call human attraction to non-human animals normal. It doesn't really matter as far as marriage goes since non-humans can't enter into contracts.

[Comanchia]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples
OP thought: I don't like it when some same sex couples use their sexual orientation to force people into doing things their way and if they didn't fold they would face a lawsuit for discrimination. and I read the story their is also discrimination on part of the judge & the gay couple they are forcing someone to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

They're not using their sexual orientation to get what they want... They wanted a cake, and because of their sexuality, they were discriminated against and denied of their cake.
What you're saying is basically like this:
A Muslim walks into a Christian owned bakery in the US, and asks for a loaf of white bread. He is denied for being Muslim. He presses charges for racial discrimination. (Then you'd say this is using his race/religion/sexuality to "get what he wants")

[Erothin]

Except for the fact that marriage between two dogs also violates his religious beliefs and he was willing to sell a wedding cake for that purpose. Also you never explained what constitutes a wedding cake. Would he be within his rights to refuse to serve them a tiered cake because it is too "wedding like"?

My family has always referred to vanilla cake as white cake... Maybe it's a local thing? My point still stands, you can't refuse to sell someone a specific product, be it for weird racial reasons, religious reasons, or otherwise, any more then you can refuse to sell them anything at all.

Since you don't like my chocolate cake analogy, let's pick another analogy. Suppose I go into a video game store and grab a copy of Grand Theft Auto. The business owner then snatches the game from me and says I can buy any of the "girl games" but he's not going to sell me GTA because it's "not meant for girls." By your argument this would be okay since he is willing to sell me video games, just not games meant for men.

What the hell is this? Dogs do not get married. And GTA is meant for all, my sister has played the game plenty of times. That is far too out as well, that would be sexism an games are meant for a whole crowd, men just seem to prefer these games due to their testosterone.

Some people hold weddings for their dogs. Did you not know this? And Jeff was asked to make a wedding cake for such a ceremony and agreed to do so. Ergo he is perfectly willing to sell "wedding cakes" for events he would not consider proper weddings.

You only think it's "too far out" because you are of the opinion that video games are for everyone. Not every person agrees with your assessment. I'm of the opinion wedding cakes are for all sorts of weddings, so yes, his refusal to give the gay couple a wedding cake is exactly the same.

[Luveria]

What do you mean exactly?

Is being sexually attracted to an animal natural? Yes. Is it normal? No.

Is being sexually attracted to a member of the same sex natural? Yes. Is it normal? Yes.

Questions?

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

For some people, and for some animals, yes it is. It's not entirely uncommon for animals to be sexually attracted to members of other species, so yes it happens in nature.

[Swedish Realm]

What the hell is this? Dogs do not get married. And GTA is meant for all, my sister has played the game plenty of times. That is far too out as well, that would be sexism an games are meant for a whole crowd, men just seem to prefer these games due to their testosterone.

Some people hold weddings for their dogs. Did you not know this? And Jeff was asked to make a wedding cake for such a ceremony and agreed to do so. Ergo he is perfectly willing to sell "wedding cakes" for events he would not consider proper weddings.

You only think it's "too far out" because you are of the opinion that video games are for everyone. Not every person agrees with your assessment. I'm of the opinion wedding cakes are for all sorts of weddings, so yes, his refusal to give the gay couple a wedding cake is exactly the same.

In a sense, sure. I can agree with you on there. Good point.

[Ifreann]

What do you mean exactly?

Is being sexually attracted to an animal natural? Yes. Is it normal? No.

Is being sexually attracted to a member of the same sex natural? Yes. Is it normal? Yes.

Questions?

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

Oh goody, we're going to wander even further off topic.

---

I also think that they should have just gotten their cake from another baker.

Then we can only conclude that you place no value on the equality and rights of gay people, nor on the rule of law.

[Conservative Conservationists]

Corinthians 7:7-9
I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

"one of one kind and one of another" - Possibly referring to forced inter racial relations. Most likely between man and woman because as below. Mainly regarding premarital sex being wrong, but states different kinds

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

AND

Romans 1:26-28
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

AND
Many others

The bible is very clear that homosexuality is bad and quite clear that marriage is between a man and a woman only.


Not believing in the bible is one thing that I personally agree with. But completely overlooking what it says without a remote reason for the argument is ridiculous.

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, and the passages written by Paul refer (most likely) to temple prostitutes.
In addition, none of those refer to same-sex marriage.

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

[Vareiln]

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, and the passages written by Paul refer (most likely) to temple prostitutes.
In addition, none of those refer to same-sex marriage.

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

So I take it you never eat shellfish, avoid being anywhere near women who are menstruating, and never wear clothes woven with two different fabrics?
Also, many religions are not, in fact, against homosexuality. It's mostly the Abrahamics and some Dharmic interpretations.

[Swedish Realm]

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, and the passages written by Paul refer (most likely) to temple prostitutes.
In addition, none of those refer to same-sex marriage.

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

Indeed, well said!

[Blekksprutia]

I also think that they should have just gotten their cake from another baker.

Then we can only conclude that you place no value on the equality and rights of gay people, nor on the rule of law.

What I'm saying is that it was their wedding. I personally would have acknowledged that the baker was a thoughtless idiot, had the wedding, and then done what they did, not stop their lives to file a lawsuit and get into all this legal hell with the baker. That would sound like the suckingest wedding ever.

[Luveria]

Being sexually attracted to an animal is natural?

Oh goody, we're going to wander even further off topic.

It's inevitable that those who are terrified of gay people are going to roll out every known fallacious argument possible, including the "wut 'bout marrying your animals, huh!?", no matter how unrelated.

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, and the passages written by Paul refer (most likely) to temple prostitutes.
In addition, none of those refer to same-sex marriage.

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

No. There are thousands of religions. Provide a source almost all of those religions are strongly against homosexuality.

[Jormengand]

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

Leviticus only applies to Levites, who are Jews and not Christians. They are of "That religion" because OT.

Same-sex marriage happens in the bible, and Romans really offers little on the subject.

[Menassa]

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
[...]

I don't think you've read Galatians... or Hebrews.

[Conservative Conservationists]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples
OP thought: I don't like it when some same sex couples use their sexual orientation to force people into doing things their way and if they didn't fold they would face a lawsuit for discrimination. and I read the story their is also discrimination on part of the judge & the gay couple they are forcing someone to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

They're not using their sexual orientation to get what they want... They wanted a cake, and because of their sexuality, they were discriminated against and denied of their cake.
What you're saying is basically like this:
A Muslim walks into a Christian owned bakery in the US, and asks for a loaf of white bread. He is denied for being Muslim. He presses charges for racial discrimination. (Then you'd say this is using his race/religion/sexuality to "get what he wants")

How is a Muslim asking for white bread being served that white bread a breach of a Christian bakers religious beliefs? The cake was for the specific purpose of supporting a ceremony which almost every branch of Christianity is opposed to.

A better comparison between a Muslim and a Christian would be in a butcher where the Muslim insists all meat is prepared as Halal otherwise he is being discriminated against because he can not eat. Instead of changing his own shopping patterns, he wishes to force another to comply with his ethical code.
All the Christian will need to do is source all his meat from elsewhere, hope it is of the same quality, hope it is of the same price and hope none of his existing customers are offended by the new approach to treating cattle.

[Luveria]

They're not using their sexual orientation to get what they want... They wanted a cake, and because of their sexuality, they were discriminated against and denied of their cake.
What you're saying is basically like this:
A Muslim walks into a Christian owned bakery in the US, and asks for a loaf of white bread. He is denied for being Muslim. He presses charges for racial discrimination. (Then you'd say this is using his race/religion/sexuality to "get what he wants")

How is a Muslim asking for white bread being served that white bread a breach of a Christian bakers religious beliefs? The cake was for the specific purpose of supporting a ceremony which almost every branch of Christianity is opposed to.

A better comparison between a Muslim and a Christian would be in a butcher where the Muslim insists all meat is prepared as Halal otherwise he is being discriminated against because he can not eat. Instead of changing his own shopping patterns, he wishes to force another to comply with his ethical code.
All the Christian will need to do is source all his meat from elsewhere, hope it is of the same quality, hope it is of the same price and hope none of his existing customers are offended by the new approach to treating cattle.

What? How does that analogy make sense to you?

Anyone can buy wedding cakes from the baker. Not everyone can eat non-Halal meat. Try harder.

[Swedish Realm]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples
OP thought: I don't like it when some same sex couples use their sexual orientation to force people into doing things their way and if they didn't fold they would face a lawsuit for discrimination. and I read the story their is also discrimination on part of the judge & the gay couple they are forcing someone to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

They're not using their sexual orientation to get what they want... They wanted a cake, and because of their sexuality, they were discriminated against and denied of their cake.
What you're saying is basically like this:
A Muslim walks into a Christian owned bakery in the US, and asks for a loaf of white bread. He is denied for being Muslim. He presses charges for racial discrimination. (Then you'd say this is using his race/religion/sexuality to "get what he wants")

Well, the Muslim could file anti religious charges, Muslim is not a race.

[Erothin]

Leviticus does not apply to Christians, and the passages written by Paul refer (most likely) to temple prostitutes.
In addition, none of those refer to same-sex marriage.

So despite being in a religious book, Leviticus does not apply to people of that religion? Interesting interpretation
And when did I reference Paul?
Corinthians still specifies a man and a woman getting married and Romans still sees Homosexuality as a sin. Almost every religion is strongly against homosexuality and the Christian Bible is no different.

Or we could all recognize that the Bible was not directly written by god (wether you believe it is divinely inspired or not) and it reflects the sometimes mistaken understandings of the people at the time it was written. I mean the Bible also is in full support of slavery, but most religious individuals are willing to admit that slavery is in fact wrong.

[Gauthier]

Well, it's a good thing the world doesn't revolve around your beliefs, eh?

Yup, because humans should be able to be in a relationship with a cow is completely normal right?

Unlike humans, cows cannot give consent so that cute attempt at reductio ad absurdum fails.

Thank you, come again.

[Swedish Realm]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/06/21795833-judge-orders-colorado-baker-to-serve-gay-couples
appears that if you own a private business you cant decide who you do business with or not anymore
in this story a judge ordered a Colorado baker to make a cake for a gay couple who married in Massachusetts and wanted a wedding cake to celebrate in Colorado. The Judge said if the baker refused then he would have to pay a fine.

OP thought: I don't like it when some same sex couples use their sexual orientation to force people into doing things their way and if they didn't fold they would face a lawsuit for discrimination. and I read the story their is also discrimination on part of the judge & the gay couple they are forcing someone to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

So NS any words?

Truth! That is what I am saying. Skål!