Americans, Never Forget: December 7, 1941

[United Kingdom of Poland]

However, the one stroke of luck the US did have was with the three carriers that were supposed to be at Pearl Harbor. One was enroute but delayed, and thus arrived later than expected(Dec 5th was the expected arrival). The other two were doing what naval ships in general do, patrol. There is usually a reason a ship sits in a harbor doing nothing when the world slowly nears war. Otherwise the ships are out doing their jobs.

You left out what in my view is the bigger stroke of luck. The Japanese were originally going to launch a third wave against the fuel depot and submarine docks, but the commander decided against it. That third wave, while it would have resulted in heavy losses for the Japanese, would have crippled the US fleet.

If anything, us history books and Media underexaggerate the losses.

Mostly because US losses weren't all that bad. The majority of ships that were damaged or sunk were returned to service.

look at the it from the Japanese perspective, your intel said 3 enemy aircraft carriers were around, your pilots report none in the base. you really want to risk running into 3 really pissed carriers after you just wrecked your squadrons in a third attack.

[Arkotania]

However, the one stroke of luck the US did have was with the three carriers that were supposed to be at Pearl Harbor. One was enroute but delayed, and thus arrived later than expected(Dec 5th was the expected arrival). The other two were doing what naval ships in general do, patrol. There is usually a reason a ship sits in a harbor doing nothing when the world slowly nears war. Otherwise the ships are out doing their jobs.

You left out what in my view is the bigger stroke of luck. The Japanese were originally going to launch a third wave against the fuel depot and submarine docks, but the commander decided against it. That third wave, while it would have resulted in heavy losses for the Japanese, would have crippled the US fleet.

If anything, us history books and Media underexaggerate the losses.

Mostly because US losses weren't all that bad. The majority of ships that were damaged or sunk were returned to service.

I mentioned the aborted attack on the fuel depot, but forgot to mention it as a great stroke of luck.

From what I've picked up, some of the ships in the harbor were even old or obsolete ships. Also, not many ships were actually FUBAR. Obviously the Arizona was not coming back and that was pretty much the only ship that was repaired and put back into service. Battleships are very sturdy vessels, it's difficult managing to damage one badly enough to make it impossible to repair(and the fact the harbor was about 45ft deep made sunken ships easy to recover).

[The Corparation]

You left out what in my view is the bigger stroke of luck. The Japanese were originally going to launch a third wave against the fuel depot and submarine docks, but the commander decided against it. That third wave, while it would have resulted in heavy losses for the Japanese, would have crippled the US fleet.


Mostly because US losses weren't all that bad. The majority of ships that were damaged or sunk were returned to service.

look at the it from the Japanese perspective, your intel said 3 enemy aircraft carriers were around, your pilots report none in the base. you really want to risk running into 3 really pissed carriers after you just wrecked your squadrons in a third attack.

Taking out the Fuel Depot could also prevent running into the carriers as destroying the fuel depot meant taking out the ability for the USN to have the fuel to spare for a chase. I'm not sure how much fuel the 3 US carriers had in them, but if the fuel depot had been lost, they'd have wanted to preserve as much of it as possible.

[God Kefka]

I didn't see a thread on this, so...

Fellow Americans, let us never forget that dreadful 7th day of December, when... "...the United States of America, was suddenly and deliberately attacked, by naval and air forces, of the Empire of Japan..." ...and how that date... "...will live in infamy..." ...in the minds of Americans for years to come. We were cowardly attacked, at the beginning of dawn, by an imperialistic power seeking to acquire resources to sustain itself by whatever means necessary, and for the next 4 years we hoped island after island in order to drive this warmongering menace back to where it came from, many of our soldiers going to hell and back. Finally, in those last few hours, when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki, and the Japanese Emperor Hirohito decided to end the war before more damage could be done. Let us never forget the men who died at Pearl Harbor.

Feel free to discuss the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but I know that threads about death tend to draw out trolls, flamers, and baiters. So I will say that if you get all warm and fuzzy about American servicemen dying at Pearl Harbor, you might as well keep those feelings to yourself. Nobody likes a douchebag.

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...

Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

[Arkotania]

The USS Enterprise did engage enemy aircraft(with it's own aircraft). However, they were looking in the wrong area. The Japanese were North, but the Enterprise was searching South, so obviously they missed the Japanese fleet by a large margin. The USS Lexington was heading to Midway to deliver fighter planes on the day the attack happened, so they were lucky to be out at sea before the attack. The USS Saratoga was in San Diego the day of the attack, and didn't make it to Pearl Harbor till Dec 29.

So the only carrier that was in immediate danger and at the vicinity was the USS Enterprise, yet it was looking in the wrong place and ended up moving away from the enemy instead. However, we must also remember where the nickname "The Grey Ghost" comes from, because the Enterprise was one stubborn and sneaky carrier.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

look at the it from the Japanese perspective, your intel said 3 enemy aircraft carriers were around, your pilots report none in the base. you really want to risk running into 3 really pissed carriers after you just wrecked your squadrons in a third attack.

Taking out the Fuel Depot could also prevent running into the carriers as destroying the fuel depot meant taking out the ability for the USN to have the fuel to spare for a chase. I'm not sure how much fuel the 3 US carriers had in them, but if the fuel depot had been lost, they'd have wanted to preserve as much of it as possible.

and if your between them and the harbor, your forgetting the Japanese have no idea where the carriers are, just that their not in Pearl. for all they know the carriers may be sitting behind them, just waiting to pounce.

[United Kingdom of Poland]

The USS Enterprise did engage enemy aircraft(with it's own aircraft). However, they were looking in the wrong area. The Japanese were North, but the Enterprise was searching South, so obviously they missed the Japanese fleet by a large margin. The USS Lexington was heading to Midway to deliver fighter planes on the day the attack happened, so they were lucky to be out at sea before the attack. The USS Saratoga was in San Diego the day of the attack, and didn't make it to Pearl Harbor till Dec 29.

So the only carrier that was in immediate danger and at the vicinity was the USS Enterprise, yet it was looking in the wrong place and ended up moving away from the enemy instead. However, we must also remember where the nickname "The Grey Ghost" comes from, because the Enterprise was one stubborn and sneaky carrier.

did the Japanese know this though, no. its the same thing as midway they know there are carriers, just not where they are.

[K oyena]

The Pearl Harbor attack was part of a pattern of despicable aggression by the Japanese Empire, but none of that justifies the use of nuclear weapons on civilians. After the war, the United States ensured that Hirohito did not face justice for his crimes.

[Rio Cana]

Japan and the other Axis powers had a treaty in which if any of them were attacked by a nation not involved in the conflict in Europe that the others would come to the one attacked rescue. Did Japan expect to get help from its Axis friends when they attacked the US. Should mention that it seems the Axis were weary of the Soviets. So many treaties were made which excluded including the Soviets.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Japan and the other Axis powers had a treaty in which is any of them were attacked by a nation not involved in the conflict in Europe that the others would come to the one attacked rescue. Did Japan expect to get help from its Axis friends when they attacked the US. Should mention that it seems the Axis were weary of the Soviets. So many treaties were made which excluded including the Soviets.

Germany's navy was pretty much non-existent for the whole of WW2. The only thing they did for the Japanese was to divert resources from the East to the Atlantic theatre, making Japan's early successes a lot easier.

[Oppressorion]

This may interest you.

[Arkotania]

The USS Enterprise did engage enemy aircraft(with it's own aircraft). However, they were looking in the wrong area. The Japanese were North, but the Enterprise was searching South, so obviously they missed the Japanese fleet by a large margin. The USS Lexington was heading to Midway to deliver fighter planes on the day the attack happened, so they were lucky to be out at sea before the attack. The USS Saratoga was in San Diego the day of the attack, and didn't make it to Pearl Harbor till Dec 29.

So the only carrier that was in immediate danger and at the vicinity was the USS Enterprise, yet it was looking in the wrong place and ended up moving away from the enemy instead. However, we must also remember where the nickname "The Grey Ghost" comes from, because the Enterprise was one stubborn and sneaky carrier.

did the Japanese know this though, no. its the same thing as midway they know there are carriers, lust not where they are.

The Japanese knew the carriers were missing before the attack(as in a day before), they just didn't know where they were.

And as for the Germans, you realize Submarines are part of the navy? The German navy was very active, just not as visibly.

[Rio Cana]

So what was the Japanese plan? They most have known the US at one point would have rebuilt its Navy and then go after them in full force. Did they attack just to get the US out of the Pacific theater for a few years while they took over and fortified there newly captured territories against any future US attack? So did the Japanese think that by fortifying some of those islands that that would persuade the US from fighting a long war with Japan. And in the meantime, would give Japan the time to increase the size of there Navy? If the US had not initialed "leapfrog" tactics, would the war have dragged on and end up being an even draw?

I found out that the US wanted to capture the Japanese fortified town of Rabaul. Seems if they had attacked it that it would have been worse then the attack on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The place was too well fortified. But the new US tactic of "leapfrogging" and skipping the well fortified islands made it possible to defeat the Japanese. So did the Japanese miscalculate.

Read this on Rabual
http://www.essortment.com/japanese-fort ... 21928.html

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

I didn't see a thread on this, so...

Fellow Americans, let us never forget that dreadful 7th day of December, when... "...the United States of America, was suddenly and deliberately attacked, by naval and air forces, of the Empire of Japan..." ...and how that date... "...will live in infamy..." ...in the minds of Americans for years to come. We were cowardly attacked, at the beginning of dawn, by an imperialistic power seeking to acquire resources to sustain itself by whatever means necessary, and for the next 4 years we hoped island after island in order to drive this warmongering menace back to where it came from, many of our soldiers going to hell and back. Finally, in those last few hours, when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki, and the Japanese Emperor Hirohito decided to end the war before more damage could be done. Let us never forget the men who died at Pearl Harbor.

Feel free to discuss the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but I know that threads about death tend to draw out trolls, flamers, and baiters. So I will say that if you get all warm and fuzzy about American servicemen dying at Pearl Harbor, you might as well keep those feelings to yourself. Nobody likes a douchebag.

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...

Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

What? so nation that wanted to stay out of the war deserves to get attacked? Get the hell out, if thats the case that gives us free will to attack any neutral nation and not get blasted by critics.

And its the Japanese you should really be disappointed in regarding the behavior, there is no way they would have lasted in the long run against the US if they attacked us, what happened in the Pacific with us, was the same thing in Europe with Germany and Russia.

But yes, Pearl Harbor is far from the worse thing to happen to the United States.

[New Gliese]

I didn't see a thread on this, so...

Fellow Americans, let us never forget that dreadful 7th day of December, when... "...the United States of America, was suddenly and deliberately attacked, by naval and air forces, of the Empire of Japan..." ...and how that date... "...will live in infamy..." ...in the minds of Americans for years to come. We were cowardly attacked, at the beginning of dawn, by an imperialistic power seeking to acquire resources to sustain itself by whatever means necessary, and for the next 4 years we hoped island after island in order to drive this warmongering menace back to where it came from, many of our soldiers going to hell and back. Finally, in those last few hours, when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki, and the Japanese Emperor Hirohito decided to end the war before more damage could be done. Let us never forget the men who died at Pearl Harbor.

Feel free to discuss the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but I know that threads about death tend to draw out trolls, flamers, and baiters. So I will say that if you get all warm and fuzzy about American servicemen dying at Pearl Harbor, you might as well keep those feelings to yourself. Nobody likes a douchebag.

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...

Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

[Dracoria]

So what was the Japanese plan? They most have known the US at one point would have rebuilt its Navy and then go after them in full force. Did they attack just to get the US out of the Pacific theater for a few years while they took over and fortified there newly captured territories against any future US attack? So did the Japanese think that by fortifying some of those islands that that would persuade the US from fighting a long war with Japan. And in the meantime, would give Japan the time to increase the size of there Navy? If the US had not initialed "leapfrog" tactics, would the war have dragged on and end up being an even draw?

I found out that the US wanted to capture the Japanese fortified town of Rabaul. Seems if they had attacked it that it would have been worse then the attack on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The place was too well fortified. But the new US tactic of "leapfrogging" and skipping the well fortified islands made it possible to defeat the Japanese. So did the Japanese miscalculate.

Read this on Rabual
http://www.essortment.com/japanese-fort ... 21928.html

The plan was to leave the U.S. unable and likely unwilling to fight, forcing one of the greatest threats in the Pacific to sign a peace agreement on favorable terms to the Japanese. The intent was not to invade the U.S., but merely break its will to hold onto its far-flung Pacific possessions or stand up for the British and French and their holdings in the region, leaving the U.S. a non-actor in the theatre. Up until the end of WWII, it seems rather common to see the U.S. as unready and unwilling to fight, despite the burst of activity just before the turn of the century and the somewhat modern military.

Only those who had a lot of contact with Americans, like Yamomoto, seemed aware that beneath that easy-going exterior was a blood-drenched crusader screaming for vengeance against any wrong, real or imagined. He was well aware of what would happen, and that while the demands for vengeance would eventually calm, it wouldn't be until well after the U.S. had rebuilt its navy and 2-3 more navies for good measure. If I recall, he estimated that Pearl Harbor would buy Japan 6 months of superiority over the Americans, after which the balance would continue to swing toward the latter; he was almost exactly correct, given what happened 6 months later.

Part of the reason is that the U.S. economy was still partially idling, and just waiting for a massive building project such as, say, a class of two dozen or so large, modern carriers or a few hundred destroyers. While Japan's factories could pump out new equipment, they just couldn't match the pace; to make matters worse, they relied heavily on foreign metal, oil and other supplies, some of which were cut off by the U.S., others which would soon be cut off by the submarine fleet thereof. Again, Yamomoto was all too aware.

[Dracoria]

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...
Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

Alright, that's a cassus belli now? Excellent! There are a lot of countries who should have just looked the other way when the U.S. was performing various operations...

Oh, and as far as the lesson? It seems to me that given the outcome of the war and the staggering civilian losses, you may be wrong about who was taken to school. ...Okay, I feel awful for typing that, but it's true.

[God Kefka]

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...
Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

Alright, that's a cassus belli now? Excellent! There are a lot of countries who should have just looked the other way when the U.S. was performing various operations...

Oh, and as far as the lesson? It seems to me that given the outcome of the war and the staggering civilian losses, you may be wrong about who was taken to school. ...Okay, I feel awful for typing that, but it's true.

Ever heard of a student exchange program?

The Americans learned some things about the real world... so did the Japanese. Different types of lessons in a way but both lessons really stuck...

[God Kefka]

Pearl Harbor is largely overrated...

Americans make it sound like their entire country was razed to the ground and their capital was bombed or something.

It was just a tiny scratch compared to what the rest of Europe and Asia suffered in the war.

Also... they kind of deserved it... for trying to count on the British to fight a war for them by themselves while NOT staying completely neutral themselves. That kind of manipulative behavior just wasn't sustainable...

Either you fight from the start, or you stay the hell out of the war.

At least Japan managed to teach the USA a bit of a lesson...

What? so nation that wanted to stay out of the war deserves to get attacked? Get the hell out, if thats the case that gives us free will to attack any neutral nation and not get blasted by critics.

And its the Japanese you should really be disappointed in regarding the behavior, there is no way they would have lasted in the long run against the US if they attacked us, what happened in the Pacific with us, was the same thing in Europe with Germany and Russia.

But yes, Pearl Harbor is far from the worse thing to happen to the United States.

If you COMPLETELY stay out you don't deserve to be attacked.

But if you ''stay out'' while supplying weapons to one side, giving orders and threats exclusively in favor of one side... then yeah I think you kind of deserve to be attacked.

[Old Tyrannia]

Congratulations America. Today is the day that, after decades of provocation, you finally managed to goad Japan into war.

[Ostroeuropa]

So what was the Japanese plan? They most have known the US at one point would have rebuilt its Navy and then go after them in full force. Did they attack just to get the US out of the Pacific theater for a few years while they took over and fortified there newly captured territories against any future US attack? So did the Japanese think that by fortifying some of those islands that that would persuade the US from fighting a long war with Japan. And in the meantime, would give Japan the time to increase the size of there Navy? If the US had not initialed "leapfrog" tactics, would the war have dragged on and end up being an even draw?

I found out that the US wanted to capture the Japanese fortified town of Rabaul. Seems if they had attacked it that it would have been worse then the attack on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The place was too well fortified. But the new US tactic of "leapfrogging" and skipping the well fortified islands made it possible to defeat the Japanese. So did the Japanese miscalculate.

Read this on Rabual
http://www.essortment.com/japanese-fort ... 21928.html

Well the people in charge of Japan were pretty massive racists.
I've heard it said that many of them assumed that a multicultural nation like the USA would just collapse into race riots and inter-race civil war if they were shoved hard enough.
"They must be almost at eachothers throats already, since the races can't possibly live together. Right Yamamoto?"

"Yamamoto? Why are you sighing at us?"

"STFU! GO BOMB PEARL HARBOR!"

[Dracoria]

Alright, that's a cassus belli now? Excellent! There are a lot of countries who should have just looked the other way when the U.S. was performing various operations...

Oh, and as far as the lesson? It seems to me that given the outcome of the war and the staggering civilian losses, you may be wrong about who was taken to school. ...Okay, I feel awful for typing that, but it's true.

Ever heard of a student exchange program?

The Americans learned some things about the real world... so did the Japanese. Different types of lessons in a way but both lessons really stuck...

I'd guess what the U.S. learned from your little lesson was, don't be subtle. Just go and invade, it works a lot better. Good thing we took it to heart!

I'm not sure what the Japanese really learned, as it was less 'learned' than 'forcibly pacified for a few years with a gun to one's head then forced to sign documents stating you will never re-arm to any real extent'.

[NERVUN]

So what was the Japanese plan? They most have known the US at one point would have rebuilt its Navy and then go after them in full force. Did they attack just to get the US out of the Pacific theater for a few years while they took over and fortified there newly captured territories against any future US attack? So did the Japanese think that by fortifying some of those islands that that would persuade the US from fighting a long war with Japan. And in the meantime, would give Japan the time to increase the size of there Navy? If the US had not initialed "leapfrog" tactics, would the war have dragged on and end up being an even draw?

I found out that the US wanted to capture the Japanese fortified town of Rabaul. Seems if they had attacked it that it would have been worse then the attack on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. The place was too well fortified. But the new US tactic of "leapfrogging" and skipping the well fortified islands made it possible to defeat the Japanese. So did the Japanese miscalculate.

Read this on Rabual
http://www.essortment.com/japanese-fort ... 21928.html

Well the people in charge of Japan were pretty massive racists.
I've heard it said that many of them assumed that a multicultural nation like the USA would just collapse into race riots and inter-race civil war if they were shoved hard enough.
"They must be almost at eachothers throats already, since the races can't possibly live together. Right Yamamoto?"

"Yamamoto? Why are you sighing at us?"

"STFU! GO BOMB PEARL HARBOR!"

Not exactly. The hardcore militarist, yes. The general idea though was that America would get enough of a bloody nose to allow Japan to consolidate and then at the bargaining table, they could give a lot back and keep some of what they wanted.

It wasn't a bad idea, really. It worked very well on Russia and Germany for a start.

[NERVUN]

Ever heard of a student exchange program?

The Americans learned some things about the real world... so did the Japanese. Different types of lessons in a way but both lessons really stuck...

I'd guess what the U.S. learned from your little lesson was, don't be subtle. Just go and invade, it works a lot better. Good thing we took it to heart!

I'm not sure what the Japanese really learned, as it was less 'learned' than 'forcibly pacified for a few years with a gun to one's head then forced to sign documents stating you will never re-arm to any real extent'.

The lessons from the war ran very, very deep. They are slowly being forgotten as that generation passes on, but they are still there and rather strong, as shown by the overwhelming support Article 9 has.

[The Black Forrest]

The Pearl Harbor attack was part of a pattern of despicable aggression by the Japanese Empire, but none of that justifies the use of nuclear weapons on civilians. After the war, the United States ensured that Hirohito did not face justice for his crimes.

Eh? War requires justification for killing?