Americans, Never Forget: December 7, 1941

[Resawa]

I have a seemingly stupid tradition
I play entirely through Medal of Honor rising sun
To me,it's the best way to acknowledge the pain of both sides.

[Conkerials]

Not enough options, would've liked one in between options 1 an 2.

[Reddogkeno101]

I didn't see a thread on this, so...

Fellow Americans, let us never forget that dreadful 7th day of December, when... "...the United States of America, was suddenly and deliberately attacked, by naval and air forces, of the Empire of Japan..." ...and how that date... "...will live in infamy..." ...in the minds of Americans for years to come. We were cowardly attacked, at the beginning of dawn, by an imperialistic power seeking to acquire resources to sustain itself by whatever means necessary, and for the next 4 years we hoped island after island in order to drive this warmongering menace back to where it came from, many of our soldiers going to hell and back. Finally, in those last few hours, when Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki, and the Japanese Emperor Hirohito decided to end the war before more damage could be done. Let us never forget the men who died at Pearl Harbor.

Feel free to discuss the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but I know that threads about death tend to draw out trolls, flamers, and baiters. So I will say that if you get all warm and fuzzy about American servicemen dying at Pearl Harbor, you might as well keep those feelings to yourself. Nobody likes a douchebag.

Mate, America colonised the Philippines and Hawaii. Does that count as imperialism. I see a bit of a hypocrite here. Also, I realise you are an American and all that comes with it, so I can understand your feelings. However, we must move on, forgive and forget; when the bombs dropped on Hiroshima, that made it far more than even, but was necessary to end the war before the soviets could do an East-west thing again and to prevent losses on both sides. So, I think a better thing to say would be: Don't forget it, but forgive it.

Also,

What makes the Pearl Harbour attack "cowardly"?

^This.

[ControlHQ]

Why they attacked America was beyond me.
I understand they cut off their oil supply, but they were steam rolling across Asia, the Chinese might as well have been shooting blanks at them.
What ever, its good thing for the human race though! It dragged America into the war helping to stop fascism.

There are many factors, the chief one being their dire need for resources to fuel their expansionist agenda and the geostrategic threat the West posed as they grew in strength. In protest of their invasion of Manchuria and China, the U.S. cut off shipments of scrap metal to the Japanese Empire, a severely debilitating blow to their war machine that thrived on the abundance of metals America provided. I believe the U.S. and U.K. also imposed crude oil sanctions thought you'd have to check me on that.

Japan's goal wasn't a prolonged war but a blitzkrieg-type offensive that would cripple the U.S. Pacific Fleet and its capacity to reach into the Japanese sphere of influence in a singular blow. They also intended to seize the oil rich Dutch East Indies and keep the British Commonwealth at bay in Southeast Asia.

At least that's the gist of it.

[Kistan]

Unfortunately, it also fed its brother ideology.

I'm guessing you're talking about capitalism.

Actually, I'm talking about Communism.

Kistan, you're an idiot! Get real! Yeah right, they're nothing alike!
Actually, here's some of the similarities between Fascism and Communism:

- Both are socialism-based (Communism is a child ideoligy, and Nazi is an abbreviation of National Socialist.

- Communism: religion is abolished, and the state replaces religion.
Fascism: the state replaces religion or twists it in their favor.

- Communism: the state rules all.
Fascism: the state rules all, either indirectly or through a powerful figurehead.

I'm not saying they are the same. They are very different. But they both have many interconnecting points and acted in similar fashions. After all, that's why both fascists (Hitler and Mussolini) and communists (Mao and Stalin, as well as Lenin) are both referenced when we talk about the greatest mass-murderers in history.

[Lianhua (Ancient)]

I have a seemingly stupid tradition
I play entirely through Medal of Honor rising sun
To me,it's the best way to acknowledge the pain of both sides.

I can appreciate that. I've tried to come to terms with the logic and arguments presented forth in this thread (in addition to what I've already been taught in school from the Japanese perspective), but it's unbelievably hard to swallow past all the heartache. Melancholic war vet of a grandfather passed away last year, and this just brings back too many memories.

[Altruistic Paladins]

Japan's tactics was Impressive,

First attacking, Pearl Harbor, then Attack a Major US ''Colony''; Philippines, I find it amusing how the Japanese handled The Americans and the Filipinos, wherein, though it took them Months to finally Control The Philippines, they Actually Destroyed Fort Bataan and Fort Correggidor, Killing Tens of thousands of Americans/Filipinos, its Really creepy to live on a place where WWII Happened...

My semantic side says that you are talking about strategy.

Still, Japan's tactics during the Pearl Harbor attack were actually ridiculous, over-planned, full of officers fighting without reconciliation on the plan of attack, and managing to get a small fraction of the damage their ordinance was capable of causing.

It is a brilliant example of the importance of flexible plans and maintaining discipline among officers that basically made Pearl Harbor something that happened to be just right for both getting Americans infuriated and also involved relatively little damage in comparison to what was actually planned.

[Corrian]

Don't see why I should be feeling any worse for the American's that died then the Japanese we nuked to smithereens.

[Lemanrussland]

Anyway, what do I think of the attack? It was a political coup for the Roosevelt administration, and gave it the political capital to finally go headfirst into the war which they had really been involved in as a unofficial belligerent since March and April of 1941, and for which the American military establishment had been preparing in earnest since 1939/1940 (http://www.history.army.mil/documents/mobpam.htm)

[Tekania]

American's what?

Exactly what I was thinking.

Ah, thank you for pointing that out, my bad...

What makes the Pearl Harbour attack "cowardly"?

So striking a country you're not at war with a sneak attack while most of them are sleeping isn't cowardly to you?

I won't forget it, no... I remember it.

But I don't call it cowardly. It was a valid military tactic.... Night-time air strikes on military targets was a common tactic even during WW1.

[Conkerials]

What makes the Pearl Harbour attack "cowardly"?

^This.

Sneak attack/surprise attack.

[Resawa]

Why they attacked America was beyond me.
I understand they cut off their oil supply, but they were steam rolling across Asia, the Chinese might as well have been shooting blanks at them.
What ever, its good thing for the human race though! It dragged America into the war helping to stop fascism.

There are many factors, the chief one being their dire need for resources to fuel their expansionist agenda and the geostrategic threat the West posed as they grew in strength. In protest of their invasion of Manchuria and China, the U.S. cut off shipments of scrap metal to the Japanese Empire, a severely debilitating blow to their war machine that thrived on the abundance of metals America provided. I believe the U.S. and U.K. also imposed crude oil sanctions thought you'd have to check me on that.

Japan's goal wasn't a prolonged war but a blitzkrieg-type offensive that would cripple the U.S. Pacific Fleet and its capacity to reach into the Japanese sphere of influence in a singular blow. They also intended to seize the oil rich Dutch East Indies and keep the British Commonwealth at bay in Southeast Asia.

At least that's the gist of it.

Also, Japan wanted the pacific, but America was/had making/made claims in it
Unless that was mentioned and I didn't see it

[Norantron]

I'm guessing you're talking about capitalism.

Actually, I'm talking about Communism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCYydVvUw4g

[Dracoria]

I'm reminded of what the Admiral of the fleet that bombed Pearl Harbor (Isoroku Yamamoto) was quoted with saying after the attack:
"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."

And he was right.

Yamamoto was not the leader of the fleet; he was an excellent strategist, but due to military politics, command of the attack was handed to a classic Mahan-inspired battlewagon admiral than any of the new aircraft carrier men despite Isoroku having been the one to come up with the strategy.

Nagumo screwed up royally; he saw the battleships as the primary concern, and ensured the attacks focused on the old battlewagons which were on the way toward being replaced as the main battleline anyway (The North Carolinas were commissioned and three of the South Dakotas were in the water) which would have likely been used for shore bombardment if anything. Focus on the failure is usually on the three carriers that were absent, as this couldn't have been helped; but the fuel depot and submarines weren't even touched. The submarine fleet would soon be to sea starting their work on the Japanese naval supply lines, and the destruction of that fuel would have set back most other projects by a few months. Many escort ships were likewise unharmed or lightly damaged.

I always remember the 7th; I always remember it could have been worse, too.

[ControlHQ]

Don't see why I should be feeling any worse for the American's that died then the Japanese we nuked to smithereens.

Because Japan ultimately was engaged in a brutal imperialistic war of conquest that cost the lives of millions and no other choice was left to the Truman Administration.

Not to defend the ethics of nuclear warfare or ignore the myriad examples of U.S. imperialism of course, but in this case, Japan's role as aggressor is undeniable.

[Resawa]

I have a seemingly stupid tradition
I play entirely through Medal of Honor rising sun
To me,it's the best way to acknowledge the pain of both sides.

I can appreciate that. I've tried to come to terms with the logic and arguments presented forth in this thread (in addition to what I've already been taught in school from the Japanese perspective), but it's unbelievably hard to swallow past all the heartache. Melancholic war vet of a grandfather passed away last year, and this just brings back too many memories.

Yeah, when I play any shooter,I imagine a war doc, and as such I really do see the Japanese soldiers as human beings, despite how pissed off I am the first two levels after being in Pearl Harbor

[Reddogkeno101]

^This.

Sneak attack/surprise attack.

It's a valid military tactic... So your point is?

[Lianhua (Ancient)]

Sneak attack/surprise attack.

Against one of the world's sleeping giants. It was banzai charge (suicidal), if anything. Go for broke and give them hell.

[Conkerials]

Sneak attack/surprise attack.

It's a valid military tactic... So your point is?

Nothing, just saying that was their reasoning behind calling it cowardly. Not defending them.

[ControlHQ]

There are many factors, the chief one being their dire need for resources to fuel their expansionist agenda and the geostrategic threat the West posed as they grew in strength. In protest of their invasion of Manchuria and China, the U.S. cut off shipments of scrap metal to the Japanese Empire, a severely debilitating blow to their war machine that thrived on the abundance of metals America provided. I believe the U.S. and U.K. also imposed crude oil sanctions thought you'd have to check me on that.

Japan's goal wasn't a prolonged war but a blitzkrieg-type offensive that would cripple the U.S. Pacific Fleet and its capacity to reach into the Japanese sphere of influence in a singular blow. They also intended to seize the oil rich Dutch East Indies and keep the British Commonwealth at bay in Southeast Asia.

At least that's the gist of it.

Also, Japan wanted the pacific, but America was/had making/made claims in it
Unless that was mentioned and I didn't see it

True, but at that time, the Roosevelt Administration's chief concern was the Depression which forced America to curtail many of its more aggressive overseas ventures (like the occupation of Nicaragua, for instance) so I do not believe America had any real intention at the time of expanding in the Pacific. If anything, Roosevelt wanted to do the fiscally wise thing and taper down the expense of imperialism.

[Kistan]

Actually, I'm talking about Communism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCYydVvUw4g

'kay then, please TG me why fascism is close to capitalism.

[Reddogkeno101]

It's a valid military tactic... So your point is?

Nothing, just saying that was their reasoning behind calling it cowardly. Not defending them.

Oh okay. Well yeah as I said valid tactic.

[Altruistic Paladins]

Don't see why I should be feeling any worse for the American's that died then the Japanese we nuked to smithereens.

I honestly do not see why we feel so sorry for the Japanese when all sides of the war used strategic bombing. Seriously, the atomic bombings were just another example of strategic bombing that was part of the idea of total war and the simple fact that only the British had bombers that were good at accurate bombing that could be done at day rather than night-time shotgun-approaches to bombing. Everyone laments Hiroshima and Nagasaki yet I have never heard anybody lament the firebombings of Dresden of Tokyo or other cities despite their aims being just the same in terms of what they entailed, just with a different bomb.

Thank god that the de Havilland Mosquito was a success and strategic bombing was agreed upon as being bad.

[Norantron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCYydVvUw4g

'kay then, please TG me why fascism is close to capitalism.

Will do!

[Resawa]

Don't see why I should be feeling any worse for the American's that died then the Japanese we nuked to smithereens.

I honestly do not see why we feel so sorry for the Japanese when all sides of the war used strategic bombing. Seriously, the atomic bombings were just another example of strategic bombing that was part of the idea of total war and the simple fact that only the British had bombers that were good at accurate bombing that could be done at day rather than night-time shotgun-approaches to bombing. Everyone laments Hiroshima and Nagasaki yet I have never heard anybody lament the firebombings of Dresden of Tokyo or other cities despite their aims being just the same in terms of what they entailed, just with a different bomb

Wasn't firebombing worst then both nukes combined? Or something along those lines