Is Affirmative Action Racist?

[Mavorpen]

IMO, affirmative action is a deeply flawed policy, that only tries to solve problems of discrimination and socio-economic gaps once they become unfixable, such as with colleges, and job applications. Often, they set up the disadvantaged for jobs they are not yet prepared for. It is, I should note, better than nothing, which some have proposed; ignoring the existing socio-economic gap between genders, races, and religions, will serve only to continue it. A far better solution would be to move affirmative action, so to speak, to small children, who need it the most. If we can eliminate the sense of hopelessness, and the cycle of poverty, from the earliest stages of preschool, we would have the best chance possible to end racism, by molding the new generation. But, the old generation will just have to do with a color-blind application process, which, while not ideal, is better than placing minorities in jobs they aren't prepared for.

But, to get back to the OP, no, affirmative action is not racist. A flawed policy, maybe. But, insofar as any action on civil rights inevitably focusses on the less fortunate group as opposed to the fortunate group, affirmative action is not the least bit racist.

You have a good point. We definitely need to educate our children better. Unfortunately, I don't see that as a good reason to eliminate Affirmative Action. We face serious discrimination problems against minorities today. We can't afford to throw those people under the bus and wait for the next generation to take over.

[Uieurnthlaal]

IMO, affirmative action is a deeply flawed policy, that only tries to solve problems of discrimination and socio-economic gaps once they become unfixable, such as with colleges, and job applications. Often, they set up the disadvantaged for jobs they are not yet prepared for. It is, I should note, better than nothing, which some have proposed; ignoring the existing socio-economic gap between genders, races, and religions, will serve only to continue it. A far better solution would be to move affirmative action, so to speak, to small children, who need it the most. If we can eliminate the sense of hopelessness, and the cycle of poverty, from the earliest stages of preschool, we would have the best chance possible to end racism, by molding the new generation. But, the old generation will just have to do with a color-blind application process, which, while not ideal, is better than placing minorities in jobs they aren't prepared for.

But, to get back to the OP, no, affirmative action is not racist. A flawed policy, maybe. But, insofar as any action on civil rights inevitably focusses on the less fortunate group as opposed to the fortunate group, affirmative action is not the least bit racist.

You have a good point. We definitely need to educate our children better. Unfortunately, I don't see that as a good reason to eliminate Affirmative Action. We face serious discrimination problems against minorities today. We can't afford to throw those people under the bus and wait for the next generation to take over.

My main fear is that affirmative action, by lowering the requirements for the economically disadvantaged, we may be letting more minorities into jobs they should be in anyway, but because of discrimination earlier on, it will all be for naught, and they'll end up even worse off. That's why I think that the best policy is to stop discrimination from taking any more of a toll, by making applications (college, jobs) colorblind, gender-blind, and religion-blind.

[Mavorpen]

My main fear is that affirmative action, by lowering the requirements for the economically disadvantaged, we may be letting more minorities into jobs they should be in anyway, but because of discrimination earlier on, it will all be for naught, and they'll end up even worse off.

Wait, what? How?

I'll need a source that affirmative action lowers the requirements for the economically disadvantaged to any significant degree that we should throw them under the bus.

That's why I think that the best policy is to stop discrimination from taking any more of a toll, by making applications (college, jobs) colorblind, gender-blind, and religion-blind.

That's not going to fix the problem by any means whatsoever. Employers and universities don't just discriminate by looking at the race of the individual. They even do it based off the name and the perceived attachment of that name to race.

That's the flaw in your proposal. It makes it so that we pretend the discrimination isn't there by ignoring it. But the reality is that it's still there. And we can't afford to screw over minorities by ending the very thing that many of them use to even get a chance at being considered on equal grounds with someone who isn't a minority.

[Liberated Dixieland]

In a perfect world where no one was racist and everyone was perfectly tolerant and all races equal economically, yes Affirmative Action would be racist.

But we do not live in a perfect world, and thus it is sadly necessary to undo racist effects, making in a non-racist, anti-racist measure.

[Uieurnthlaal]

My main fear is that affirmative action, by lowering the requirements for the economically disadvantaged, we may be letting more minorities into jobs they should be in anyway, but because of discrimination earlier on, it will all be for naught, and they'll end up even worse off.

Wait, what? How?

I'll need a source that affirmative action lowers the requirements for the economically disadvantaged to any significant degree that we should throw them under the bus.

That's why I think that the best policy is to stop discrimination from taking any more of a toll, by making applications (college, jobs) colorblind, gender-blind, and religion-blind.

That's not going to fix the problem by any means whatsoever. Employers and universities don't just discriminate by looking at the race of the individual. They even do it based off the name and the perceived attachment of that name to race.

That's the flaw in your proposal. It makes it so that we pretend the discrimination isn't there by ignoring it. But the reality is that it's still there. And we can't afford to screw over minorities by ending the very thing that many of them use to even get a chance at being considered on equal grounds with someone who isn't a minority.

That's what I meant. The name should not be a part of the application process, since it is a major contributing factor to discrimination.

About the mismatch, as it's called, I found the paper I was looking for, here, but as it turns out, it's hardly a settled paper, and people have pointed out several flaws. So, I revise my statement. Affirmative action is flawed, and might place disadvantaged groups in situations they are unprepared for. Or it might not.

[Mavorpen]

That's what I meant. The name should not be a part of the application process, since it is a major contributing factor to discrimination.

And how, exactly are businesses going to do a background check on you if they don't know your name? Are businesses supposed to just take everything on your resume at a face value without being able to verify everything?

There's a reason why people require certain information on applications, you know. I don't think you should be so hasty to make such major changes to businesses when the companies themselves obviously see these things a necessary...especially since I doubt you're an employer yourself.

About the mismatch, as it's called, I found the paper I was looking for, here, but as it turns out, it's hardly a settled paper, and people have pointed out several flaws. So, I revise my statement. Affirmative action is flawed, and might place disadvantaged groups in situations they are unprepared for. Or it might not.

Well, I don't disagree with you, actually. I'd say that it's very probable that some people may be put into positions they are unprepared for. But I don't think that minority should result in changing the law and potentially screwing over the majority of people who actually aren't placed into situations they are unprepared for.

As long as it isn't to a significant degree, then I don't see it as a legitimate reason to get rid of AA. Anyway, I'm heading to bed. I'll respond to your next post tomorrow.

[Coccygia]

Anything that shows favor toward a group due to their race is by definition racist. In this instance a positive racism to counter a negative one.

you can't be racist to white people, if that is what you are implying because that's impossible.

That's the PC position, of course, and it's total bullshit. Anybody who denigrates anybody on the basis of their race is racist.

[Seriong]

Anything that shows favor toward a group due to their race is by definition racist. In this instance a positive racism to counter a negative one.

you can't be racist to white people, if that is what you are implying because that's impossible.

Well, I don't personally think you're real, but if you are I would wish to ask you a few questions.
What is your definition of "Racism"?
Where did you get such a definition, if you state an academic field, I would like some area within that field, a paper, or a book, that contains that definition.

[JJ Place]

Affirmative action is the belief that the majority race is superior, and the minority races are inferior and can't handle themselves.

So yeah, extremely racist.

Minority races aren't inferior, people of minority races face a life that's weighed down by discrimination a society that largely hampers people down with. Affirmative action's goal is to rebuke that discrimination, and equalize the quality of life for people that face crappier lives based on their ethnicity.

[Ifreann]

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

In the past maybe, but nowadays, it's just there to block talented people, who do not fill minority quotas, in favor of less talented minorities.

No it's not. That's just a lie white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever.

---

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

That's what anti-discrimination laws are for. Affirmative action gives people jobs on the because of race.

No it doesn't.

[Minnysota]

No it's not. That's just a lie white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever.

Can we stop with this fallacious statement? You're not automatically a white male who didn't advance in the business world because you're against affirmative action or have a different perspective on it than liberals.

[Coccygia]

That's what anti-discrimination laws are for. Affirmative action gives people jobs on the because of race.

No it doesn't.

Really? I was under the impression that it did (admittedly I was speaking loosely). Explain.

[Mavorpen]

No it's not. That's just a lie white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever.

Can we stop with this fallacious statement? You're not automatically a white male who didn't advance in the business world because you're against affirmative action or have a different perspective on it than liberals.

I'm not sure where he said this is true.

Ifreann is right though. That IS something that white men tell themselves and each other when they don't want to believe that maybe, just maybe, they didn't get the job because they weren't good enough.

[Shaggai]

you can't be racist to white people, if that is what you are implying because that's impossible.

That's the PC position, of course, and it's total bullshit. Anybody who denigrates anybody on the basis of their race is racist.

That isn't the PC position, to the best of my knowledge. I'm glad to see you know the definitions of racism. And that affirmative action isn't racist.

[Minnysota]

Ifreann is right though. That IS something that white men tell themselves and each other when they don't want to believe that maybe, just maybe, they didn't get the job because they weren't good enough.

There are certainly white males who blame their failures on affirmative action. There are black males who blame constant discrimination for why they can't advance in the business world. People find things on which to blame their failures. However, can we PLEASE stop acting like ALL white males act like this? Ifreann's wording implies that all white men tell themselves then upon failure. This simply is not true. It's completely fallacious to imply that all of a specific demographic follow one line of thinking.

[Mavorpen]

No it doesn't.

Really? I was under the impression that it did (admittedly I was speaking loosely). Explain.

Affirmative Action's role is to provide incentive for businesses to diversify their workplace. This means that out of the top applicants, they choose those who they think can best diversify their workplace. It isn't, "well, between this stack of black applicants and this stack of white applicants, I choose the black ones."

[Mavorpen]

There are certainly white males who blame their failures on affirmative action. There are black males who blame constant discrimination for why they can't advance in the business world.

Please don't compare the two.

One is ground in facts and reality and the other is ground in an immature desire to remain at the top and refusal to accept that people different than them may be chosen over them.

People find things on which to blame their failures. However, can we PLEASE stop acting like ALL white males act like this?

No one did. So, what are you complaining about?

Ifreann's wording implies that all white men tell themselves then upon failure.

No it doesn't. It only does if you WANT it to and really want something to complain about.

[Coccygia]

Really? I was under the impression that it did (admittedly I was speaking loosely). Explain.

Affirmative Action's role is to provide incentive for businesses to diversify their workplace. This means that out of the top applicants, they choose those who they think can best diversify their workplace. It isn't, "well, between this stack of black applicants and this stack of white applicants, I choose the black ones."

As you have explained it, that's pretty much EXACTLY what it does. Who's going to choose white applicants to "diversify" their workplace?

[Mavorpen]

Affirmative Action's role is to provide incentive for businesses to diversify their workplace. This means that out of the top applicants, they choose those who they think can best diversify their workplace. It isn't, "well, between this stack of black applicants and this stack of white applicants, I choose the black ones."

As you have explained it, that's pretty much EXACTLY what it does. Who's going to choose white applicants to "diversify" their workplace?

The majority of businesses who undertake Affirmative Action?

Because you know, white women benefit from AA the most by far out of any group.

[Minnysota]

Please don't compare the two.

No, I'm going to compare the two. Both are situations involving an underachieving individual who is finding an excuse for his failure. I'm not pretending that there isn't discrimination in the business world, but let's also not pretend that it is as widespread as people like to claim. Let's not pretend that there aren't instances in which affirmative action does take over. Again, I'm not claiming that it is what happens the majority of the time, but to insinuate that affirmative action doesn't affect businesses like this ever is naive and biased.

One is ground in facts and reality and the other is ground in an immature desire to remain at the top and refusal to accept that people different than them may be chosen over them.

No, both are grounded in one's immaturity and inability to deal with the fact that he likely just failed to succeed to the degree he expected of himself.

No it doesn't. It only does if you WANT it to and really want something to complain about.

I was not looking for something to complain about. That is a belief that has been numerous times expressed in this thread, and in other debates regarding affirmative action. It isn't uncommon for someone to just stand out and say, "You're only against affirmative action because you're white and you don't want to lose your privileges!" (Again, fallacious statements apply to the other side.) If he was looking to avoid confusion at all, he would have worded it as such: "That's just a lie some white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever." The context in which he used the original sentence ("That's just a lie white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever.") offers no implications that he is not using this as a blanket term across all white males.

[Mavorpen]

No, I'm going to compare the two. Both are situations involving an underachieving individual who is finding an excuse for his failure. I'm not pretending that there isn't discrimination in the business world, but let's also not pretend that it is as widespread as people like to claim.

So...instead of providing evidence for your claim, you intentionally make a vague as hell straw man that we can't possibly argue against?

Specifically tell me who these "people" are and how widespread they claim discrimination is. Because I can assure you, discrimination in the business world exists on a disgusting scale.

Let's not pretend that there aren't instances in which affirmative action does take over. Again, I'm not claiming that it is what happens the majority of the time, but to insinuate that affirmative action doesn't affect businesses like this ever is naive and biased.

Uh... what?

I have no idea what you think I'm posting, but you seem to be tilting at windmills big time. When have I insinuated that affirmative action doesn't affect businesses?

No, both are grounded in one's immaturity and inability to deal with the fact that he likely just failed to succeed to the degree he expected of himself.

Aaand no source.

I was not looking for something to complain about. That is a belief that has been numerous times expressed in this thread, and in other debates regarding affirmative action. It is actually pretty common for someone to just stand out and say, "You're only against affirmative action because you're white and you don't want to lose your privileges!"

I haven't seen that. At all.

Have people claimed that a lot of the dislike for Affirmative Action is based on that? Absolutely. But you're attacking things that aren't there. It is in fact not "common" in this thread that people argue that ONLY white people dislike Affirmative Action and ALL white people think like this.

If he was looking to avoid confusion at all, he would have worded it as such: "That's just a lie some white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever."

I imagine that this could have also been avoided by not jumping to conclusions and responding with a knee jerk reacion.

The context in which he used the original sentence ("That's just a lie white men tell themselves and each other when they don't get hired or promoted or whatever.") offers no implications that he is not using this as a blanket term across all white males.

It doesn't need to. Really, it doesn't. All you need to do is read through the thread.

[Seriong]

As you have explained it, that's pretty much EXACTLY what it does. Who's going to choose white applicants to "diversify" their workplace?

The majority of businesses who undertake Affirmative Action?

Because you know, white women benefit from AA the most by far out of any group.

That's simply an evasion of what he is trying to ask. Replace "White" with "White male"

[Crumlark]

I have renewed interest in this thread, and consider this, by all means, my first post to my second attempt to debate on the thread.
Define affirmative action.

[Mavorpen]

The majority of businesses who undertake Affirmative Action?

Because you know, white women benefit from AA the most by far out of any group.

That's simply an evasion of what he is trying to ask.

No, it isn't.

Replace "White" with "White male"

The answer is again, the majority of businesses who undertake Affirmative Action.

[Belique]

you can't be racist to white people, if that is what you are implying because that's impossible.

That's the PC position, of course, and it's total bullshit. Anybody who denigrates anybody on the basis of their race is racist.

that's approximately 739569027635789013840592834.876457% true