Is Affirmative Action Racist?

[Capital Zealand]

I understand the rationale behind it, but yes it is racist and immoral.

It's actually neither... so sorry.

Pretend all you like.

[Seriong]

That is positive racism...

Why does it have to be race?

Why can't it be something like disabled people? Women? Why are you so damn focused on races?

Then it it's simply positive discrimination, you still don't have a point.

The issue with the thread is first apparent in the poll. "Is it racist or just?" such a question doesn't make sense. It's like asking "Is this road turning left or west?". The options aren't mutually exclusive. By basic reasoning, affirmative action is racist, sexist, whatever in terms of the group it is affecting, but also in some cases it's completely necessary, and thus just.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Affirmative action comes up so often on these forums that I can't be bothered to continue arguing about it with the same passion that I did when I first joined NS; but I'd just like to point out something:

Even if you accept that promoting diversity is a worthy goal, affirmative action may have unintended effects.

Scenario #1:

Let's say that in a fictional country called the Serene and Glorious Reich of Nazi Flower Power, the Jews control the media and there is a university called National Reich University, which has an excellent journalism program. National Reich University wants to help more Germans to get into journalism. Many people apply for admission to the journalism program. Some have excellent credentials and obviously deserve to be admitted, some are losers, and some are borderline. Among the people who are clearly qualified, everyone is admitted regardless of ethnicity. Among the borderline cases, Germans are admitted to the University and Jews are not.

You work for a newspaper in the Serene and Glorious Reich, and there are two people applying for a job there. They are both recent graduates of National Reich University, they have similar resumes, and neither one stands out when you interview them. One is German and one is Jewish. In this scenario, it is smarter to hire the Jew, even though it perpetuates Jewish control of the media. Why? Because you know that they were clearly qualified to get into National Reich University and were not one of those borderline people who barely squeaked in.

It's difficult to determine how often this sort of thing plays out in the real world because the effects would be difficult to distinguish from conventional racism. It is still something that should be considered, even if it is not the #1 cause of inequality.

Scenario #2:

There are two universities, National Reich University and the University of Woodstock. National Reich University is more selective and demanding than the University of Woodstock. Joe Minority applies to both schools. He is clearly qualified for admission to Woodstock, but he is a borderline case at NRU because they are more selective. Since he is a minority and NRU has an affirmative action program, he gets into NRU. Unfortunately, he has trouble keeping up with NRU's high academic standards, and he eventually flunks out. After this, he is discouraged and never finishes his degree.

Had NRU denied him admission, he would have still been accepted to Woodstock. Since Woodstock is less demanding, he would be more likely to finish his degree without flunking out. Might he not be better off without the help of NRU's affirmative action program?

I saw an article a while back indicating that this does happen. I'm not sure I could find it again, but it was about universities in the US (California IIRC) that had eliminated affirmative action. The result was that there were fewer minorities in the student body as a whole, but the graduation rate among the minority population went up and they ended up with more black graduates than usual.

I know some affirmative action supporters will not see this as a reason to give up on supporting affirmative action, but could you at least take a moment to think about what your goals are? Are you trying to help minorities get the education that best meets their own needs or are you trying to get them into college so that other students can be exposed to their point of view? If you really think it's important to have minorities in the classroom just for the sake of having them there, even if they fail, then I disagree with you, but I see how affirmative action would help you achieve your intended goal. If you have other things in mind, then I don't see how affirmative action is useful. The available evidence does not suggest that removing it will send us back to the 1950s.

I know some of you like to believe that anybody can do anything if you just give them a chance, but it doesn't always work out that way. I've tried taking classes at a couple of different universities, and there is a HUGE difference in difficulty between Harvard and the University of Massachusetts. Letting people into Harvard won't magically enable them to cope with this.

[Republic of Greater America]

Yes, the best jobs should go to the most capable, no damn exceptions.

[Ifreann]

Yes, the best jobs should go to the most capable, no damn exceptions.

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

[Mavorpen]

I know some affirmative action supporters will not see this as a reason to give up on supporting affirmative action, but could you at least take a moment to think about what your goals are? Are you trying to help minorities get the education that best meets their own needs or are you trying to get them into college so that other students can be exposed to their point of view?

Both.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I know some affirmative action supporters will not see this as a reason to give up on supporting affirmative action, but could you at least take a moment to think about what your goals are? Are you trying to help minorities get the education that best meets their own needs or are you trying to get them into college so that other students can be exposed to their point of view?

Both.

And if the two contradict each other?

[Mavorpen]

Both.

And if the two contradict each other?

Then you deal with it. Like what happens with every single law out there.

[Nazi Flower Power]

And if the two contradict each other?

Then you deal with it. Like what happens with every single law out there.

Fair enough.

[Mavorpen]

Then you deal with it. Like what happens with every single law out there.

Fair enough.

I get what you're saying though. Affirmative Action definitely isn't perfect.

[Jinos]

Anyone who says Affirmative Action is racist or unnecessary doesn't understand the economic situation of the black community, which is STILL impoverished from the after effects of Jim Crow almost half a century after the civil rights movement. Poverty is mostly an inherited condition, therefor blacks (who are still VERY segregated when it comes to neighborhood residencies) struggle far more often than whites when it comes to securing decent education (since schools are mostly funded by property taxes) and decent employment. This is of course, not even to mention the very real presence of racism (employers are still much more likely to choose a white over a black even if they have equal qualifications).

It's a vicious cycle, blacks are born into poverty, receive poor education, get mediocre jobs, are unable to improve the quality of their neighborhood, their neighborhood is unable to improve the quality of their schools, their kids go through the same cycle.

Obviously that's nowhere near always the case, but on average, that's what it boils down to.

[Republic of Greater America]

Yes, the best jobs should go to the most capable, no damn exceptions.

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

In the past maybe, but nowadays, it's just there to block talented people, who do not fill minority quotas, in favor of less talented minorities.

[Mavorpen]

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

In the past maybe, but nowadays, it's just there to block talented people, who do not fill minority quotas, in favor of less talented minorities.

Stop lying.

Quotas are illegal.

[Capital Zealand]

Yes, the best jobs should go to the most capable, no damn exceptions.

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

You missed his point entirely by addressing a different problem. To the most capable people or just people?

[Coccygia]

Yes, the best jobs should go to the most capable, no damn exceptions.

That's entirely the point of affirmative action. Ensuring that people don't get or lose jobs because of racism.

That's what anti-discrimination laws are for. Affirmative action gives people jobs on the because of race. Seems pretty racist to me.

[Srboslavija]

Affirmative Action is good in theory to overcome rampant generational discrimination in certain studies and fields of work.

But when it comes down to it, as an example, if faced with a life threatening injury I would rather a fully competent doctor than one who was picked to fill a quota.

So I dunno :/

[Mavorpen]

Affirmative Action is good in theory to overcome rampant generational discrimination in certain studies and fields of work.

But when it comes down to it, as an example, if faced with a life threatening injury I would rather a fully competent doctor than one who was picked to fill a quota.

So I dunno :/

The fuck does that have to do with Affirmative Action?

[The First Republic of the Seventh Bay]

I can understand the thought behind it. It's trying to do a good thing, but in all reality it's just a racist concept.

[Albicia]

In the past maybe, but nowadays, it's just there to block talented people, who do not fill minority quotas, in favor of less talented minorities.

Stop lying.

Quotas are illegal.

Not in Australia.

[Srboslavija]

Affirmative Action is good in theory to overcome rampant generational discrimination in certain studies and fields of work.

But when it comes down to it, as an example, if faced with a life threatening injury I would rather a fully competent doctor than one who was picked to fill a quota.

So I dunno :/

The fuck does that have to do with Affirmative Action?

AA implements job quotas, therefore employers are not always able to hire the most qualified person.

Like recently with the female firefighter who failed all the tests but was still accepted because the department need to fill a quota.

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/the-firefighter-you-dont-want-to-save-you/story-e6frfm9r-1226757232936

[Mavorpen]

AA implements job quotas, therefore employers are not always able to hire the most qualified person.

Bullshit. Quotes aren't inherent in Affirmative Action.

[Mavorpen]

Stop lying.

Quotas are illegal.

Not in Australia.

Then that's a problem for Australia.

Stop generalizing your country's shitty implementation of Affirmative Action in other countries.

[Revitopia]

Anything that shows favor toward a group due to their race is by definition racist. In this instance a positive racism to counter a negative one.

[Tumblr Isles]

Anything that shows favor toward a group due to their race is by definition racist. In this instance a positive racism to counter a negative one.

you can't be racist to white people, if that is what you are implying because that's impossible.

[New Laikland]

Affirmative action is the belief that the majority race is superior, and the minority races are inferior and can't handle themselves.

So yeah, extremely racist.