Same-sex marriage ban referendum in Croatia

[Mad Jack]

2: Not all religious groups are homophobic. While some Christian denominations might be homophobic, quite a few are not. Take Brazil and Argentina(both of which have massive Catholic populations) as an example; both have same-sex marriage legal.

We really, really shouldn't be using Brazil as an example. Whilst, yes, same sex marriage is legal the country has a huge problem with anti-LGBT violence.

A homophobic murder occurs once every 2 to 3 days, with a death of over 2,700 in the period 1980 to 2009. 65% of LGBTs in Brazil have been the victim of a hate crime.

[Petacada]

Christ disagreed.

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

Chances are, Christ is referring to the laws of the New Testament.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... -testament

[Soldati Senza Confini]

After all, "Love thy brother as thy self," "Thou shall not kill," etc.

"Slaves, obey your masters", "women, shut the fuck up when men are talking", "if you misbehave you get to spend eternity in Hell", etc.

Sorry Liri, but that was Paul, not Jesus, who said this.

If you are however taking ALL of the Bible as what one person said then it is quite dishonest. Even for Christians to say the Bible is infallible is quite dishonest too.

[Estado Paulista]

2: Not all religious groups are homophobic. While some Christian denominations might be homophobic, quite a few are not. Take Brazil and Argentina(both of which have massive Catholic populations) as an example; both have same-sex marriage legal.

We really, really shouldn't be using Brazil as an example. Whilst, yes, same sex marriage is legal the country has a huge problem with anti-LGBT violence.

A homophobic murder occurs once every 2 to 3 days, with a death of over 2,700 in the period 1980 to 2009. 65% of LGBTs in Brazil have been the victim of a hate crime.

Thank you. I'm sick of seeing people using Brazil as an example regarding LGBT rights.

[Menassa]

No. No it is not. The books of Moses(and the majority of the OT) became irrelevant after Christ came. Know you're religion before you make religious posts.

Christ disagreed.

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

Concerning Jews yes he disagreed, but look at what Paul (Christ's mouthpiece) said to gentiles.

As well nothing changed from The Law, it's just that we don't have to practice it anymore.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Which would be false. It isn't a continuation, but rather a schism as seen with Paul of Tarsus and his wanting to separate Christian doctrine and Jewish doctrine. Christians were never recognized by the Jews and they are still not recognized as a sister religion because of the Messiah and a couple of other things they don't believe in.

The Christian movement began with Jewish men and, to a minimal extent, women; but it wasn't Judaism proper and Jews did not and still don't see us as sister religions outside of the context of Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all fall on the same line of descent, but we don't agree with each other, therefore we see each other differently).

Last time i checked Jews believe in a messiah, but they are still waiting, unlike christians who believe Jesus is messiah.

No shit, I also know that. The problem as you said is that we believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that has shit to do with the actual discussion at hand because we are talking about Christianity and Judaism being different.

You are merely grasping at straws here, you know that right?

[Mad Jack]

We really, really shouldn't be using Brazil as an example. Whilst, yes, same sex marriage is legal the country has a huge problem with anti-LGBT violence.

A homophobic murder occurs once every 2 to 3 days, with a death of over 2,700 in the period 1980 to 2009. 65% of LGBTs in Brazil have been the victim of a hate crime.

Thank you. I'm sick of seeing people using Brazil as an example regarding LGBT rights.

Mmm. Brazil is a country seemingly at war with itself over LGBT rights. 77% are in favour of the creation of specific offences relating to anti-LGBT violence, but there's still this huge death toll and amount of violence.

[Liriena]

2: Not all religious groups are homophobic. While some Christian denominations might be homophobic, quite a few are not. Take Brazil and Argentina(both of which have massive Catholic populations) as an example; both have same-sex marriage legal.

We really, really shouldn't be using Brazil as an example. Whilst, yes, same sex marriage is legal the country has a huge problem with anti-LGBT violence.

A homophobic murder occurs once every 2 to 3 days, with a death of over 2,700 in the period 1980 to 2009. 65% of LGBTs in Brazil have been the victim of a hate crime.

In Brazil's case, their legalization of same-sex marriage has more to do with extremely courageous judges and politicians, and less to do with widespread sociocultural endorsement of it. Machismo is still very strong, especially in rural areas.

As for Argentina, the majority of our catholics are only catholic in name, and even devoted catholics have been known to be extremely critical of some of the Church's stances on sociocultural issues. There is a religion-values dissonance of sorts.

[Mavorpen]

"Slaves, obey your masters", "women, shut the fuck up when men are talking", "if you misbehave you get to spend eternity in Hell", etc.

Sorry Liri, but that was Paul, not Jesus, who said this.

If you are however taking ALL of the Bible as what one person said then it is quite dishonest. Even for Christians to say the Bible is infallible is quite dishonest too.

Actually, Jesus did say something similar to the first.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."

[Mad Jack]

No. No it is not. The books of Moses(and the majority of the OT) became irrelevant after Christ came. Know you're religion before you make religious posts.

Christ disagreed.

"For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:18-19)

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17)

The Law was fulfilled by Jesus Christ dying for our sins on the cross.

[Liriena]

"Slaves, obey your masters", "women, shut the fuck up when men are talking", "if you misbehave you get to spend eternity in Hell", etc.

Sorry Liri, but that was Paul, not Jesus, who said this.

If you are however taking ALL of the Bible as what one person said then it is quite dishonest. Even for Christians to say the Bible is infallible is quite dishonest too.

I know it was Paul, but it is part of the New Testament, the allegedly "nice part" of the Bible. Sure, it has less genocide, but the morals in it are still a bit off.

[Petacada]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

[Mavorpen]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

The fuck does this even have to do with same sex marriage in Croatia?

[Menassa]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

Slavery is not the point, nor the topic of this thread.

[Estado Paulista]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

Do explain how.

[Mavorpen]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

Do explain how.

How about no, because we've been off topic for a while now.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."

I'm not sure if this is relevant or not. But context is also important.

35 “Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning, 36 like servants waiting for their master to return from a wedding banquet, so that when he comes and knocks they can immediately open the door for him. 37 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them watching when he comes. Truly I tell you, he will dress himself to serve, will have them recline at the table and will come and wait on them. 38 It will be good for those servants whose master finds them ready, even if he comes in the middle of the night or toward daybreak. 39 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

41 Peter asked, “Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?”

42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

I know it was Paul, but it is part of the New Testament, the allegedly "nice part" of the Bible. Sure, it has less genocide, but the morals in it are still a bit off.

I find this an absurd argument from both sides. Paul was not infallible. Paul was just a Biblical Scholar during the first century. He can be criticized too.

[Estado Paulista]

Do explain how.

How about no, because we've been off topic for a while now.

Regardless, I want to hear his explanation.

[Petacada]

Last time i checked Jews believe in a messiah, but they are still waiting, unlike christians who believe Jesus is messiah.

No shit, I also know that. The problem as you said is that we believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that has shit to do with the actual discussion at hand because we are talking about Christianity and Judaism being different.

You are merely grasping at straws here, you know that right?

I was merely showing a single point where christianity and judaism are similar. Saying that they are separate is insane. Christianity is the direct descendent of judaism.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You have to remember that slavery was a lot different in bible times than what you think of when you hear slavery

Wut?

[New Acardia]

Sorry Liri, but that was Paul, not Jesus, who said this.

If you are however taking ALL of the Bible as what one person said then it is quite dishonest. Even for Christians to say the Bible is infallible is quite dishonest too.

I know it was Paul, but it is part of the New Testament, the allegedly "nice part" of the Bible. Sure, it has less genocide, but the morals in it are still a bit off.

You forget that Paul also told people to treat there slaves right.
And slavery ended 75 years after the empire became Christian

[Menassa]

No shit, I also know that. The problem as you said is that we believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that has shit to do with the actual discussion at hand because we are talking about Christianity and Judaism being different.

You are merely grasping at straws here, you know that right?

I was merely showing a single point where christianity and judaism are similar. Saying that they are separate is insane. Christianity is the direct descendent of judaism.

Once again, not the point of this thread.... but today they are very far from each other.

Unless your an Ebionite.

[Mavorpen]

How about no, because we've been off topic for a while now.

Regardless, I want to hear his explanation.

No. That's not an excuse to keep derailing the thread.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No shit, I also know that. The problem as you said is that we believe Jesus is the Messiah, and that has shit to do with the actual discussion at hand because we are talking about Christianity and Judaism being different.

You are merely grasping at straws here, you know that right?

I was merely showing a single point where christianity and judaism are similar. Saying that they are separate is insane. Christianity is the direct descendent of judaism.

And yet they are not regarded the same. Islam is also directly descendant of Judaism yet you don't talk about it which is odd because last time I remembered it was considered part of the triad.

[The Fascist American Empire]

No, 1. actually it says just the exact opposite. You atheists have 2. twisted the Word of God into 3. serving your own twisted purposes. 4. Sickos.

1. will just repeat the list of biblical sources I provided earlier.

Outdated: Genesis 1 - The earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and plants before animals. We now know that the order of events was completely opposite.
Genesis 2:18- Adams gets to name all the animals a task that would require him still being alive as we haven't even discovered them all yet. Not to mention that evolution didn't make it into the text.
Genesis 6:4- But where are the giants now?
Genesis 7- The absurd and obvious untrue story of Noah.
Leviticus 11:5-6- Hares don't chew cud.
Leviticus 11:22-23 - All insects don't have four legs.
Leviticus 11:13-19 and Deuteronomy 14:11-18- Bats are not birds.
Numbers 21:6- I am still waiting for the fire serpents to show up somewhere outside of myth.

Murderous: Leviticus 20:9- Children that insult their parents shall be killed.
Judges 11:30-40- Jephthah burns his daughter alive because god tells him to.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21- Disobedient children shall be killed.
2 Kings 15:16 - God sanctions the pregnant women of Tappuah being “ripped open”

Infanticide: 1 Samuel 15:3 - God orders the death of infants.
Psalms 135:8 & 136:10 - God is praised for killing babies.
Psalms 137:9 - Infants should be “dashed upon the rocks”.

Genocidal: Exodus 12:29 -God kills every first-born child in Egypt.
Joshua 8 -God commanded the deaths of 12,000 men, women, and children of Ai.
Lamentations 2:20-22 -God torments and kills people. He even compels women to eat their children.

2. Tell me, what ambiguity exists in killing an entire town because one person prefers another god, as Deuteronomy 13:13-19?

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him."

I am only pointing out what the bible says and citing chapter and verse. If your "word of god" demands blood, that is not my doing but its author's.

3. What would I have to gain?

4. I am not the one who uses a book that demands killing people with different religious beliefs as scared scripture. (Exodus 22:19, Leviticus 20:27, 2 Chronicles 15:12-13, Zechariah 13:3, Deuteronomy 13:7-12) Let someone who's messiah didn't accept every iota, every dot, of this stuff cast the first stone.

Many of these things, especially Psalms, were metaphorical. After all, Psalms was mostly parallel poetry. Pharaoh technically brought it upon himself, as the final plague was taken from Pharaoh's own mouth. Besides, all of this is from the Old Testament, where sacrifice was needed and many religious practices were rather violent. Also, parts of Lamentations is metaphorical as well as most of Psalms. Thus, your information is outdated as Jesus being crucified by a pagan people was the final sacrifice. The last to ever be needed. Hence, Christianity in its current form (i.e. the Inquisition being disbanded) is a rather peace-loving religion. It no longer requires the annihilation of other religions, "Love thy brother as thy self," and "Love thy neighbor, this is the greatest commandment." The Old Testament is little more to a Christian than the story of creation and the history of Israel.