Ukrainian Crisis

[Risottia]

the Bahamas is because its islands. I don't know if the Czech republic is that way in Czech but that whole "republic" thing needs the "the". like THE united states of America vs America.

Defeating my own point: The Gambia.

River.
The Gambia River.

[Tosswurmia]

Ok, so how I understand it is that Ukraine's government decided to accept a bailout from Russia rather than join the EU. I have no problem with that. Russia might have offered them a better deal than the EU. But when the pro-western half of the country erupts in riots, the government decides to push through a bunch of regime-like laws restricting their freedoms. Like taking away their right to freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, even their right to wear masks in public and other freedoms. This definitely puts the government in the wrong. It's like an admission of guilt by Ukraine. And now that the protests and riots are gaining even greater strength the government of Ukraine sends thousands of police forces against them, wounding 300 and killing 4 of their own citizens. Not to mention the videos that have popped up on the internet of police publicly stripping protesters naked, humiliating them and beating them. So instead of acting like the democracy that it is supposed to be, Ukraine is acting like a tyrannical regime.

[Farnhamia]

Defeating my own point: The Gambia.

River.
The Gambia River.

Yes, but it is usually just called "The Gambia," even though its official name is the Republic of the Gambia. And enough on the name thing. The government of the Ukraine would like everyone to use "Ukraine," not "the Ukraine."

[Risottia]

River.
The Gambia River.

Yes, but it is usually just called "The Gambia," even though its official name is the Republic of the Gambia. And enough on the name thing. The government of the Ukraine would like everyone to use "Ukraine," not "the Ukraine."

Yup, I know.
To me, "the Ukraine" sounds quite strange because, you know, it's u krajna: "near the border". "The Near-The-Border" would be... weird...
Then again, in Italian all countries take the determinative article: "l'Italia", "la Francia", "il Belgio", "l'Ucraina".

[Caraani]

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs;I would have said rightfully, but then I thought about how the USSR starved and ruled in a dictatorial manner over Ukraine.They do not even try to retake it in a manly way, they do it by telling the Ukrainians that if they do not stay in the Russian sphere they would stop the gas exports to Ukraine, gas for which Ukraine pays way too much then they should.Having said all this, I think that we are freeing Ukraine from their Russian/Soviet past, a past full of horrors for the Ukrainian people, and even if the future is not as bright as dreamers would imagine it to be, it is way brighter then being in the shadow of Moskow.

Are you aware that there were other periods in USSR's history, besides Leninism-Stalinism? Like Khrushchev providing housing for those who cannot afford it, and fighting to eliminate extreme poverty in the USSR. You know, there's a lot more to the USSR than "hurr durr Stalin". I like the USSR, and I'm no fan of Stalin.

Yes I am, have I ever said Stalin ruled the USSR from it's beginning until it's end?
And if you think that Stalin was the only dictator of the USSR...

[Caraani]

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.

I guess we could say the same about:
Germany, France, England, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, Italy, Turkey, Mongolia, etc etc

All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs

Hurr durr ebul ruski commies! Commies commies commies! Hate hate hate!
/ZombieReagan

While you go all Hurr durr Putin is keeping all those countries that were part of the USSR very close to Russia.Hate?Commies?Nope.Just common sense.

[The Republic of Mattlandia]

I guess we could say the same about:
Germany, France, England, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, Italy, Turkey, Mongolia, etc etc


Hurr durr ebul ruski commies! Commies commies commies! Hate hate hate!
/ZombieReagan

While you go all Hurr durr Putin is keeping all those countries that were part of the USSR very close to Russia.Hate?Commies?Nope.Just common sense.

I'd consider giving more power to someone nobody likes is hardly common sense.

[Caraani]

While you go all Hurr durr Putin is keeping all those countries that were part of the USSR very close to Russia.Hate?Commies?Nope.Just common sense.

I'd consider giving more power to someone nobody likes is hardly common sense.

[Shofercia]

Are you aware that there were other periods in USSR's history, besides Leninism-Stalinism? Like Khrushchev providing housing for those who cannot afford it, and fighting to eliminate extreme poverty in the USSR. You know, there's a lot more to the USSR than "hurr durr Stalin". I like the USSR, and I'm no fan of Stalin.

Yes I am, have I ever said Stalin ruled the USSR from it's beginning until it's end?
And if you think that Stalin was the only dictator of the USSR...

I don't, there were also Lenin and Gorbachev. BTW, if you want to undo the policies of Khrushchev or Brezhnev in Ukraine, why not? Let's do it! Except that would destroy what's left of Ukraine's economy now, wouldn't it? Rhetorical question, don't answer. Tell me though, Ukraine's been "free" since 1991, what improvements took place in the economic sphere?

I guess we could say the same about:
Germany, France, England, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, Italy, Turkey, Mongolia, etc etc


Hurr durr ebul ruski commies! Commies commies commies! Hate hate hate!
/ZombieReagan

While you go all Hurr durr Putin is keeping all those countries that were part of the USSR very close to Russia.Hate?Commies?Nope.Just common sense.

Hear that Ris - you're now a Putinist. For stating facts. Erm, Caraani, when did Ris go hurr durr Putin? Are you capable of backing that up, or are you, like Euromaidaners, only capable of making empty accusations and calling them common sense? So tell me, when did Ris go hurr durr Putin?

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

Seriously. A lot of people in the anti-EU circle have a fetish for Putin. It's seriously retarded.

It's not retarded, it's propaganda on the part of the pro-EU movement to scare the people of Eastern Europe. First step is to convince them that Putin = Stalin, despite the fact that Putin doesn't have gulags which killed millions, isn't forcing collectivization on the population and isn't massively purging the armed forces, and the second step is to convince the masses that Euroskepticism = support for Putin/Stalin, despite the fact that a good chunk of Euroskepticism is anti-austerity. The EU doesn't want to address austerity, so they came up with a brilliant way, from a PR perspective, and an absolutely atrocious way from a non PR perspective, to force austerity down Ukraine's throat.

[Camelza]

I believe this to be a fantastic development. For too long has the EU been expanding it's liberalist tentacles across the European Continent.

the EU been expanding it's liberalist tentacles across the European Continent.

expanding it's liberalist tentacles across

liberalist tentacles

I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going.

[72o]

A lot of european politicans didn't realize how far putin would go to take control of ukraine and to drive a wedge between ukraine and the EU. Now that it's obvious that putin is even willing to let the ukraine descend into chaos and civil war at least some of them are waking up.
Energy indepence from russia, especially regarding the baltic states, should be a primary goal.

[The Republic of Mattlandia]

I believe this to be a fantastic development. For too long has the EU been expanding it's liberalist tentacles across the European Continent.

the EU been expanding it's liberalist tentacles across the European Continent.

expanding it's liberalist tentacles across

liberalist tentacles

I've seen enough hentai to know where this is going.

Thats my fetish.

[Vorkova]

USSR reforms in five, four, three... [/sarcasm]

[Atelia]

the Bahamas is because its islands. I don't know if the Czech republic is that way in Czech but that whole "republic" thing needs the "the". like THE united states of America vs America.

Defeating my own point: The Gambia.

Also some refer to it as the The Sudan.

[European Socialist Republic]

USSR reforms in five, four, three... [/sarcasm]

USSR? I thought Putin was going to declare himself Czar!

[Tosswurmia]

What makes Ukraine think it has the right to torture its own citizens> Such a government is tyrannical and deserves to be overthrown.

Quoting BBC News, "And an activist was found dead in woods near Kiev after apparently being abducted, tortured and left to die in the snow."

[The Republic of Mattlandia]

USSR reforms in five, four, three... [/sarcasm]

USSR? I thought Putin was going to declare himself Czar!

*Premier

[Vetalia]

USSR reforms in five, four, three... [/sarcasm]

Nah, Putin doesn't have enough Diplo score yet to enact that decision.

[ShadowDragons]

I'd rather see the Ukraine in the EU than with Russia. Russia has lots of tentacles in Ukraine and it will go with russia.

[Vorkova]

USSR reforms in five, four, three... [/sarcasm]

USSR? I thought Putin was going to declare himself Czar!

All hail His Imperial Majesty, Vladimir I, By the Grace of God, Emperor and Autocrat of All Russia.

[NorthEast Alliance]

As I expressed earlier in this thread, Ukraine is better off to forge closer ties with Russia, who actually has a responsible leader with a proven track record as opposed to the bureaucrats of the EU who are downright left-wing and are against nationalism.

I simply do not understand all the protests in Ukraine you think your economic woes are bad now, well wait till you get the EU involved it will crash in about two seconds despite assurances from EU leadership that the Euro is a "safe" currency. Ukraine can not afford another descent into the leftward spiral it will ruin itself from the inside. The embracement of more right leaning, nationalistic polices enshrined upon by Putin will make Ukraine a mighty, free, and fiscally sound nation!

[Marcurix]

As I expressed earlier in this thread, Ukraine is better off to forge closer ties with Russia, who actually has a responsible leader with a proven track record as opposed to the bureaucrats of the EU who are downright left-wing and are against nationalism.

A track record of what exactly?

I simply do not understand all the protests in Ukraine

Yet you feel you understand the situation in Ukraine enough to say it should forge ties with Russia instead of the EU.

you think your economic woes are bad now, well wait till you get the EU involved it will crash in about two seconds despite assurances from EU leadership that the Euro is a "safe" currency.

Markets are a good indicator too, though again if you think the EU would crash "in about two seconds" you don't have a firm grasp of economics.

Ukraine can not afford another descent into the leftward spiral it will ruin itself from the inside. The embracement of more right leaning, nationalistic polices enshrined upon by Putin will make Ukraine a mighty, free, and fiscally sound nation!

Probably not. Nationalistic polices mean us vs them, and "them" get targeted in the name of the "us", regardless of whether it's actually beneficial or not. They don't tend to be the most long term thinking policies.

[Gallia-]

Because Putin has a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.
Or because Russia as a personal right to a sphere of influence over other countries.

Here's now a typical train of thought from Eurosceptics.

Stay tuned for more fun stories, I guess.

Why is Russia not allowed to have a sphere of influence, but Brussels is?
The EU should be happy with what they have and stop the expansionist attitude towards Moscow.

Probably because the EU is just objectively superior in terms of civil liberties, defence policy, and economic development.

Of course, if you are self-loathing or self-destructive, you'd pick Russia.

[NorthEast Alliance]

As I expressed earlier in this thread, Ukraine is better off to forge closer ties with Russia, who actually has a responsible leader with a proven track record as opposed to the bureaucrats of the EU who are downright left-wing and are against nationalism.

A track record of what exactly?

I simply do not understand all the protests in Ukraine

Yet you feel you understand the situation in Ukraine enough to say it should forge ties with Russia instead of the EU.

you think your economic woes are bad now, well wait till you get the EU involved it will crash in about two seconds despite assurances from EU leadership that the Euro is a "safe" currency.

Markets are a good indicator too, though again if you think the EU would crash "in about two seconds" you don't have a firm grasp of economics.

Ukraine can not afford another descent into the leftward spiral it will ruin itself from the inside. The embracement of more right leaning, nationalistic polices enshrined upon by Putin will make Ukraine a mighty, free, and fiscally sound nation!

Probably not. Nationalistic polices mean us vs them, and "them" get targeted in the name of the "us", regardless of whether it's actually beneficial or not. They don't tend to be the most long term thinking policies.

Putins record is very clear, dealing with Islamic extremism, economic growth for Russian and more recently protecting family values in Russia a benefit to all Russian people. Putin is well simply put a strong and capable leader, disagree with him or not you can not deny the mans leadership skills in making Russia a better place. Which could happen in Ukraine if Putin forged closer ties.

As for my comment of crashing in two seconds its was obviously a testament on the failed economic policy of the communist super state your defending. I realize it won't crash in two seconds but like many countries in the EU which are collapsing Ukraine risks the same problem and another factor which I failed to mention is immigration. I do not think the UK wants to deal with hundreds of thousands of Ukraine's people flooding enmase like the Poles or Islamic extremists.

As for your comments toward nationalism you are 100% incorrect nationalism is a vital concept of any nation state. The phrase 'Strength Through Unity, Unity Through Faith" comes to mind. A nation united will be strong against opposition despite what the mainstream elite is telling you.

[Marcurix]

Putins record is very clear, dealing with Islamic extremism,

Expand on this.

economic growth for Russia

Which can't solely be put down to Putin, much like the economic problems facing Russia.

and more recently protecting family values in Russia a benefit to all Russian people.

Protecting "family values" is in the eye of the beholder, and it certainly isn't a benefit to all Russian people.

Putin is well simply put a strong and capable leader, disagree with him or not you can not deny the mans leadership skills in making Russia a better place.

I can and will. Putin is not a particularly distinguishing leader in terms of his capabilities when compared to his counter-parts in the EU. He does his PR like all EU leaders do, panders to his friends as all EU leaders do and he tries to divide his enemies as all EU leaders do. The advantage Putin does have is the system that allows him to take more heavy handed measures against his opponents and his ability to utilize this system without major backlash. This is not present in Ukraine, if you've been paying attention.

Which could happen in Ukraine if Putin forged closer ties.

and how do you figure that? Ukraine is not Russia, the system is not the same and any partnership is sorely tipped in favour of Russia. Better for Ukraine to go to the EU to balance the scales.

As for my comment of crashing in two seconds its was obviously a testament on the failed economic policy of the communist super state your defending.

The only testaments you're making are as follows:

You don't understand economics
You don't know what communism is
You don't know what a state is

I realize it won't crash in two seconds but like many countries in the EU which are collapsing

No they're not. Are some nations going through hard times? Yes, but that does not equal collapse.

Ukraine risks the same problem

It Ukraine is facing collapse it won't be because of the EU.

and another factor which I failed to mention is immigration. I do not think the UK wants to deal with hundreds of thousands of Ukraine's people flooding enmase like the Poles or Islamic extremists.

Well, first you should understand that the Ukraine-EU agreement wasn't about the freedom of movement that is present in the EU itself. This was a matter for forge closer economic ties not to wholly join the EU at this time, so your immigration attempt isn't particularly relevant or important in this case.

Second, Islamic extremists have not been flooding into the UK. While there is a problem with a very small minority, they do not reflect the values or thinking of the vast majority of Muslims in the UK it should also be said small minority is being dealt with, slowly and surely. So I'll ask you to either educated yourself on that subject or to be quite about it, because clearly your interaction with British Muslims in general is lacking.

Thirdly, regardless on my own opinion of the EU's currently free moment policies, you have no ground to suggest hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians would "flood" the UK even if it were to join the EU outright.

As for your comments toward nationalism you are 100% incorrect nationalism is a vital concept of any nation state.

Useful? Yes. Vital? No. Nationalism as such utilized by nations clings to past grudges beyond the point of benefit.

The phrase 'Strength Through Unity, Unity Through Faith" comes to mind.

So does the word obedience.

A nation united will be strong against opposition despite what the mainstream elite is telling you.

The mainstream elite would love a common foe to focus people's attentions away from issues in the country. People should only resort to a solidly unified front when the country faces a serious external threat. These days that ideal gets molded by the elite all the time to suit their needs and offer distraction to a populace.