Ukrainian Crisis

[Ashmoria]

Yep. Nobody says [in English] the Russia, the China, the England, the Japan, the Pakistan, etc.

But they do say The Czech Republic, and The Bahama's.

the Bahamas is because its islands. I don't know if the Czech republic is that way in Czech but that whole "republic" thing needs the "the". like THE united states of America vs America.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

But they do say The Czech Republic, and The Bahama's.

the Bahamas is because its islands. I don't know if the Czech republic is that way in Czech but that whole "republic" thing needs the "the". like THE united states of America vs America.

Defeating my own point: The Gambia.

[Bulgar Rouge]

Ukraine joining would be a good excuse to tell Turkey, "well, we're already too large, no need of you nao". But Ukrainians are foolish if they think joining the EU will bring much change to their country. It might even be the opposite.

Endless status quo?

If you mean Ukraine, my assertion is that EU accession will aggravate its problems. It happened with us - ever since we joined in 2007, small businesses have been struggling to keep up with EU-imposed standards. Corruption rankings actually worsened because cohesion funds were abused. I don't even want to imagine what Ukraine will go through - it's much more corrupt, much poorer and much more of a mess than Bulgaria. And it's much larger.

[Lyttenburgh]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

You (and this Chaos-worshipper) only failed to mention that: a) All Russia's men are Ivans and women - Natashas b) There is always winter in Russia c) Wild bears with balalaikas and ushankas stalk the desolate cities of Russia.

Otherwise, you have an ideal Russophobic no-brainer of stereotypes for a message. This kind of so called "opinions" got answered in this thread so many times, but, hey - reading is for loosers, so just post some random "Thing's that I believe (but have no real knowledge of)" stuff.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

You (and this Chaos-worshipper) only failed to mention that: a) All Russia's men are Ivans and women - Natashas b) There is always winter in Russia c) Wild bears with balalaikas and ushankas stalk the desolate cities of Russia.

Otherwise, you have an ideal Russophoboc no-brainer of stereotypes for a message. This kind of so called "opinions" got answered in this thread so many times, but, hey - reading is for loosers, so just post some random "Thing's that I believe (but have no real knowledge of)" stuff.

But Ivan and Natasha are deliciously cool names.

[Caraani]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

"Not everything that is good for João is going to be good for Mateus."

[Caraani]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

"Not everything that is good for João is going to be good for Mateus."

I say we should let the people decide, and it seems that the people like the EU much more then they like the CIS.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I say we should let the people decide, and it seems that the people like the EU much more then they like the CIS.

It will fuck Ukraine and our relationship with Russia!

We have the right to say no!

(Freudian slipping into European again...)

[Hurdegaryp]

You (and this Chaos-worshipper) only failed to mention that: a) All Russia's men are Ivans and women - Natashas b) There is always winter in Russia c) Wild bears with balalaikas and ushankas stalk the desolate cities of Russia.

Otherwise, you have an ideal Russophoboc no-brainer of stereotypes for a message. This kind of so called "opinions" got answered in this thread so many times, but, hey - reading is for loosers, so just post some random "Thing's that I believe (but have no real knowledge of)" stuff.

But Ivan and Natasha are deliciously cool names.

That is something we can all agree on. Now let us drink vodka while lamenting the corrupting influence of the decadent West.

[Caraani]

I say we should let the people decide, and it seems that the people like the EU much more then they like the CIS.

It will fuck Ukraine and our relationship with Russia!

We have the right to say no!

(Freudian slipping into European again...)

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs;I would have said rightfully, but then I thought about how the USSR starved and ruled in a dictatorial manner over Ukraine.They do not even try to retake it in a manly way, they do it by telling the Ukrainians that if they do not stay in the Russian sphere they would stop the gas exports to Ukraine, gas for which Ukraine pays way too much then they should.Having said all this, I think that we are freeing Ukraine from their Russian/Soviet past, a past full of horrors for the Ukrainian people, and even if the future is not as bright as dreamers would imagine it to be, it is way brighter then being in the shadow of Moskow.

[Lyttenburgh]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

CIS and EU are just incomparitable. The Commonwealth of Independent States has no A) common currency and B) Overall bureaucracy + over-governmental offices. In fact, it's all other CIS countries except of Russia who benefits from this state of affair. Why? Becouse CIS citizens can travel to other CIS countries visa free. Yes, that's why there are a lot of Caucasus and Central Asian gastarbeiters in Russia . In 90s Ukrainians and Moldavians were the chief ethnic groups of Russia's gastarbeiters.

And now more buzz-killing. I understand, that "Star Wars" totally indoctrinated several Western generations in thinking, that any "Rebel" group is "Good Guys" by default, and they must, definitely, topple always corrupt "Government". Now, a little reminder - this is real life. Just because all this events are taking place away from your homes, just didn't mean they are less real, and more likely to follow your imaginary fantasy rules.

The chief question should be : "What to do?" and "Who can do this?". Oh, but this requires, of course recognizing the first the ugly truth that a) The Ukraine has a crapload of a debt. b) EU neither want to cover Ukraine’s debts or just right now accept this country as a full fledge member. c) The decisions of international importance are carried out by governments, not mobs on the street. Sorry, I'm not inventing this up - kinda, all the World agrees on this.

[Caraani]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

CIS and EU are just incomparitable. The Commonwealth of Independent States has no A) common currency and B) Overall bureaucracy + over-governmental offices. In fact, it's all other CIS countries except of Russia who benefits from this state of affair. Why? Becouse CIS citizens can travel to other CIS countries visa free. Yes, that's why there are a lot of Caucasus and Central Asian gastarbeiters in Russia . In 90s Ukrainians and Moldavians were the chief ethnic groups of Russia's gastarbeiters.

And now more buzz-killing. I understand, that "Star Wars" totally indoctrinated several Western generations in thinking, that any "Rebel" group is "Good Guys" by default, and they must, definitely, topple always corrupt "Government". Now, a little reminder - this is real life. Just because all this events are taking place away from your homes, just didn't mean they are less real, and more likely to follow your imaginary fantasy rules.

The chief question should be : "What to do?" and "Who can do this?". Oh, but this requires, of course recognizing the first the ugly truth that a) The Ukraine has a crapload of a debt. b) EU neither want to cover Ukraine’s debts or just right now accept this country as a full fledge member. c) The decisions of international importance are carried out by governments, not mobs on the street. Sorry, I'm not inventing this up - kinda, all the World agrees on this.

I've never said that as soon as the Ukrainian government is toppled the dept will magically disappear or that Ukraine will enter the EU, I just said what EU gives is better then what Russia gives, at least from a moral point of view.Ukraine will have more hope, the people will no longer feel as if they still were in the Soviet Union and they will begin to consider themselves true europeans.Also Ukraine will have to decide weather they should begin to try accomplishing some important things (IDK what it is all about, I know my country did it before entering the EU) that will clearly modernize Ukraine, at least a bit, or stick to the old ways.
Anyway, Winds of Change, my friend, Winds of Change.

[Ayreonia]

BBBAAAAAAAAAAA

Please don't make light of this situation. Ukraine could very well spiral into extreme unrest, even civil war if this Euromaiden chirade is allowed to continue.

More information on the "peaceful protestors" http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kiev-opposition-clashes-045/

Why the hell would I not make light of this situation? I find it fucking hilarious that the people you dub "sheep" are the ones revolting against those well-behaving, loyal, government-backing upstanding citizens... oh wait, who's the sheep now?

Of course, you're only a sheep if you believe in the EU and social liberalism. If you blindly follow Putin and his cronies, you're totally better than that.

[Lyttenburgh]

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.

Yeeeaaaah. Riiight. This is the place, when I ask you to provide any support for your bullshi... utterly crazy rant, but it's no use agruing with zomby. What? I can't say that? It's "too non-politically correct and offensive for zombies"? How about strawman, then?

All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs;

If you still see USSR and not Russia - don't blame us. Blame your Ministry of Tru... Hollywood. Oh, and senator McCain.

I would have said rightfully, but then I thought about how the USSR starved and ruled in a dictatorial manner over Ukraine.

Uh-huh [Yawn]. Another "Holodomor theory supporter" without any factual knowledge of the topic. How typical.

They do not even try to retake it in a manly way, they do it by telling the Ukrainians that if they do not stay in the Russian sphere they would stop the gas exports to Ukraine, gas for which Ukraine pays way too much then they should

Oh, those dastardly bloody Russians! We taughted them capitalism - and how the corrupted this noble idea! Insteasd of giving Ukraine gas for free, they actually demand, that they should pay for it!

.Having said all this, I think that we are freeing Ukraine from their Russian/Soviet past, a past full of horrors for the Ukrainian people, and even if the future is not as bright as dreamers would imagine it to be, it is way brighter then being in the shadow of Moskow

Eh... wow. "We are freeing". Nuff said. Honestly, I just can't cure this kind of brainwash, so... Hey, say what? Get yourself a ticket and fly over to Kiev. Taste the Glorious Urkranian Revolution in the making! Take part in the life altering events! Write down your name in the Scroll of History!

P.S. Hope you are not a gay. Or Jew. Or truly liberal anti-violent type, who really supports humans right. But if that's not the case, you will feel on Euromaidan like you are really at home

[Caraani]

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.

Yeeeaaaah. Riiight. This is the place, when I ask you to provide any support for your bullshi... utterly crazy rant, but it's no use agruing with zomby. What? I can't say that? It's "too non-politically correct and offensive for zombies"? How about strawman, then?

All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs;

If you still see USSR and not Russia - don't blame us. Blame your Ministry of Tru... Hollywood. Oh, and senator McCain.

I would have said rightfully, but then I thought about how the USSR starved and ruled in a dictatorial manner over Ukraine.

Uh-huh [Yawn]. Another "Holodomor theory supporter" without any factual knowledge of the topic. How typical.

They do not even try to retake it in a manly way, they do it by telling the Ukrainians that if they do not stay in the Russian sphere they would stop the gas exports to Ukraine, gas for which Ukraine pays way too much then they should

Oh, those dastardly bloody Russians! We taughted them capitalism - and how the corrupted this noble idea! Insteasd of giving Ukraine gas for free, they actually demand, that they should pay for it!

.Having said all this, I think that we are freeing Ukraine from their Russian/Soviet past, a past full of horrors for the Ukrainian people, and even if the future is not as bright as dreamers would imagine it to be, it is way brighter then being in the shadow of Moskow

Eh... wow. "We are freeing". Nuff said. Honestly, I just can't cure this kind of brainwash, so... Hey, say what? Get yourself a ticket and fly over to Kiev. Taste the Glorious Urkranian Revolution in the making! Take part in the life altering events! Write down your name in the Scroll of History!

P.S. Hope you are not a gay. Or Jew. Or truly liberal anti-violent type, who really supports humans right. But if that's not the case, you will feel on Euromaidan like you are really at home

Wow, just...wow.Just the fact that you deny what the Soviets did in Ukraine and how Ukrainians starved to death tells me whom I deal with.Yep, of course, comrade, just keep sleeping in Moskow.And while you are at it, look though this thread for my first post in here, you will understand that I don't live in America nor am I an American.

[Lyttenburgh]

I've never said that as soon as the Ukrainian government is toppled the dept will magically disappear or that Ukraine will enter the EU,

Well, then you are not hopeless after all.

I just said what EU gives is better then what Russia gives, at least from a moral point of view.

But what EU proposal gives exactly? Besides the proverbial bupkis (this one is surprisingly free!). Russia gives 15 billion (15 000 000 000) $ to the Ukraine. C'mon, go tell freezing Ukrainians that not getting a) Russian Gas b) Russian money is a better option "from a moral point of view".

Ukraine will have more hope, the people will no longer feel as if they still were in the Soviet Union and they will begin to consider themselves true europeans.

As a matter of fact I have both friends and relatives on the Ukraine. And (surprise-surprise!) none of them think, that they still live in the USSR. Especially the elder ones. They actually long for that time. Also - when you are piss poor considering yourself "European" can't help you. Just look at the Baltic sates or Poland! They too consider themselves Europeans, but "true" Europeans a) Still repeat threats of the horde of polish janitors/bulgaro-romanian gypsies as a reason to rise anti-immigration hysteria b) If they don't , then they use them in what is just a few inches short of slave labour kind of work (complaining about damn foreigners all the time) c) Don't give a damn.

Also Ukraine will have to decide weather they should begin to try accomplishing some important things (IDK what it is all about, I know my country did it before entering the EU) that will clearly modernize Ukraine, at least a bit, or stick to the old ways.

What exactly? Also - where are you from?

Anyway, Winds of Change, my friend, Winds of Change.

1) I don't know you, so don't call me a "friend"

2) I love "The Scorpions". I like "Winds of change". But I don't like stupid unsupported arguments and handwaving of really important things.

[Caraani]

I've never said that as soon as the Ukrainian government is toppled the dept will magically disappear or that Ukraine will enter the EU,

Well, then you are not hopeless after all.

I just said what EU gives is better then what Russia gives, at least from a moral point of view.

But what EU proposal givesexactly? Besides the proverbial bupkis, this one is (surprisingly!) free. Russia gives 15 billion (15 000 000 000) $ to the Ukraine. C'mon, go tell freezing Ukrainians that not getting a) Russian Gas b) Russian money is a better option "from a moral point of view".

Ukraine will have more hope, the people will no longer feel as if they still were in the Soviet Union and they will begin to consider themselves true europeans.

As a matter of fact I have both friends and relatives on the Ukraine. And (surprise-surprise!) none of the, think, that they still live in the USSR. Especially the elder ones. They actually long for that time. Also - when you are piss poor considering yourself "European" can't help you. Just look at the Baltic sates or Poland! They too consider themselves Europeans, but "true" Europeans a) Still repeat threats of the horde of polish janitors/bulgaro-romanian gypsies as a reason to rise anti-immigration hysteria b) If they don't , then they use them in what is just a few inches short of slave labour kind of work (complaining about damn foreigners all the time) c) Don't give a damn.

Also Ukraine will have to decide weather they should begin to try accomplishing some important things (IDK what it is all about, I know my country did it before entering the EU) that will clearly modernize Ukraine, at least a bit, or stick to the old ways.

What exactly? Also - where are you from?

Anyway, Winds of Change, my friend, Winds of Change.

1) I don't know you, so don't call me a "friend"

2) I love "The Scorpions". I like "Winds of change". But I don't like stupid unsupported arguments and handwaving of really important things.

1) I did not call you a friend, as in, you are my friend, is just a way of adressing one.

2) Learn what Winds of Change means.

3) Told you to search though this thread, if you find out where I'm from, I will even respond to your brainwashed arguments, just for fun, ofc.

[Arkinesia]

Sadly, it didn't take me too long to realize what that song was based upon.

What are you talking about? I love late '90s/early '00s/pre-freakout Britney Spears without any sense of irony.

[Lyttenburgh]

Wow, just...wow.Just the fact that you deny what the Soviets did in Ukraine and how Ukrainians starved to death tells me whom I deal with.

Where did I say that I deny the fact, that during 1932/33 "Collectevisation Famine" there were no Ukraniansa starving to death? More importantly, is that you just jump the "Holodomor train", that's why limiting that Famine only to the UkSSR. So, I understand, that you deny, that there were a famine victims in another parts of the Soviet Union, hm?

Yep, of course, comrade, just keep sleeping in Moskow

Where I'm from, nobody calls each other "comrade". If you use this as a form of adress akin to "friend", then re-read my previous post. If this is your way to show your "ani-commie attitidue" - then, no again. I'm not a communist. This only shows your Russophobic bias. Oh, by the way - I think, this will come as revelation for you, but I don't live in Moscow. Neither is my first name Ivan. Crazy world, huh?

.And while you are at it, look though this thread for my first post in here, you will understand that I don't live in America nor am I an American.

That's given. Even typicall American won't write "Moskow". And you still didn't answer a simple question - where are you from, i.e. what country?

2) Learn what Winds of Change means.

In fact, I actually know. It's you, who don't know Rock Classics and it's connection to the real world (at that time).

3) Told you to search though this thread, if you find out where I'm from, I will even respond to your brainwashed arguments, just for fun, ofc.

Oh, really? Your Majesty would Grace us unworthy ones with the pearls of your heavenly wisdom based on the stellar performance of Romania in EU?

Before that, pray, tell me - how did the demographic situation changed in your country since 1991 to this day?

Well, start on!

[Shofercia]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

If by progressive, pro-EU Ukrainians, you mean those who built a trebuchet and claimed they have no weapons, those who are protesting in favor of austerity, despite that screwing up lifestyles of the elderly, war veterans, single mothers, and those living on the edge of poverty... wow, the definition of Progressives certainly changed from the days of Teddy Roosevelt, or so the "hurr durr PR Brigade" will have you believe. Oh, and source for most Russophiles loving Russia more than their own country. This isn't some epic struggle for independents. It's about Yanukovich's support, (the elderly, the poor, single mothers, anyone else who'll be fucked by austerity,) vs the brainwashed crowds thinking that just because they sign FTA, EU membership and jobs will instantly follow.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

Considering how there's a pro-Russian cabinet and a rather large Russophile opinion group in Ukraine, I hardly see the need for an explanation involving foreign agent provocateurs when a local and simpler explanation is fully available.

Silence Commie! Putin and Obama are turning back the clock of the free market, actually demanding that people have some form of Social Rights. Like Carthage, they must be destroyed!

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

A factor for russophilia in Ukraine is the Russian orthodox church which is making indoctrinasation of the religious people by convincing them that unity with Russia is something holy and that thoose who admire the West are somehow sinners.

Source for the Russian Orthodox Church demanding that Ukraine merge into Russia. I'm not talking about the argument about brotherhood, common historical roots, uniting as a Church, etc. You said something, source it. Either put up a source, or stop posting bullshit. Yo, Russians, take a look at the bullshit Europhiles are spouting; that five percent still want to join the EU? What, if you're going to stereotype the actions of a few Russophiles in order to bash all Russophiles, we'll do the same to Europhiles. Want to see who wins that battle?

Considering that, in both the Russian Empire and Soviet Union the church was effectively absorbed by the state, I can't really say that it's surprising.

In both cases the ROC has always promoting the official policy of the Russian government just like today (great Russian policy, russophilia and Russian asimilation of non-russian people).

Source for Russian Orthodox Church pushing for an official policy on that matter please. And not just some random priest, or some piece of shit PR spin. Official statement please.

Yes, the USSR and Stalin were making economic.discrimination in the Ukraine. Thoose region with russophile majority were industrialised as a reward while western Ukraine was having Gladomor and was been provincialised for years.

Oh, this is rich. As rich as those funding the protests. Now you're arguing against facts. Why not, it's all the rage these days. Actually, the regions that were hardest hit, are the most "Russophilic". Here's an actual map of the Holodomor, you know, facts, the things you constantly ignore:



Notice Vinnitsa, Zhitomyr, etc, those who are actually pro-EU, weren't actually the hardest hit. Notice how Krasnodar, (that's not a part of Ukraine,) was hard hit, despite being a part of Russia. Only region that was spared, was Stalin's namesake. Just for you, I'll mention that "Stalino" gives it away. Of course no one who actually knows jack shit about history of Ukraine would make the extraordinarily piss poor comment that Stalin specifically targeted the "Russophobic" parts, because quite a few of these parts were not even part of the Soviet Union in 1932-1933

Oh propaganda, your power is immense. Speaking of those who are most "EUphilic", those would be the same ones involved in the "Shame of the Princes", and also part of the "Polonized Ukraine".

[Shofercia]

It will fuck Ukraine and our relationship with Russia!

We have the right to say no!

(Freudian slipping into European again...)

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs;I would have said rightfully, but then I thought about how the USSR starved and ruled in a dictatorial manner over Ukraine.They do not even try to retake it in a manly way, they do it by telling the Ukrainians that if they do not stay in the Russian sphere they would stop the gas exports to Ukraine, gas for which Ukraine pays way too much then they should.Having said all this, I think that we are freeing Ukraine from their Russian/Soviet past, a past full of horrors for the Ukrainian people, and even if the future is not as bright as dreamers would imagine it to be, it is way brighter then being in the shadow of Moskow.

Are you aware that there were other periods in USSR's history, besides Leninism-Stalinism? Like Khrushchev providing housing for those who cannot afford it, and fighting to eliminate extreme poverty in the USSR. You know, there's a lot more to the USSR than "hurr durr Stalin". I like the USSR, and I'm no fan of Stalin.

[Shofercia]

Wow, just...wow.Just the fact that you deny what the Soviets did in Ukraine and how Ukrainians starved to death tells me whom I deal with.Yep, of course, comrade, just keep sleeping in Moskow.And while you are at it, look though this thread for my first post in here, you will understand that I don't live in America nor am I an American.

He's saying that Holodomor was actually Stalin going after Kulaks in the Donbass and other regions, not about USSR vs Ukraine. Much like the "Wars of Religion" were about Hapsburgs vs Everyone Else, not about Protestants v Catholics. One explanation is historical, the other's made up. During the Wars of Religion, Catholic France fought on the side of Protestants. During the Holodomor, Krasnodar, (not a part of Ukraine,) was also hard hit. Was what Stalin did atrocious? Absolutely. Is this something that Ukrainians should now have an eternal grudge against all things Russian? Absolutely not. Unless they want to be viewed as ignorant.

[Libertarian California]

I do not say that the EU isn't a bit shity, but it is 9000 times better then the Commonwealth of ''Independent'' States.

Seriously. A lot of people in the anti-EU circle have a fetish for Putin. It's seriously retarded.

[Risottia]

Relationship?Russia has a history of trying to eat as much as it can out of Europe.

I guess we could say the same about:
Germany, France, England, Spain, Austria, Hungary, Poland, Sweden, Denmark, Lithuania, Italy, Turkey, Mongolia, etc etc

All I see is a beaten Soviet Union trying to retake what was once theirs

Hurr durr ebul ruski commies! Commies commies commies! Hate hate hate!
/ZombieReagan