Ukrainian Crisis

[Risottia]

Seems to me that the option most of the current protesters (which may or may not be representative of a majority of the Ukrainian voters, I'm not making assumptions about that) would welcome is a full EU membership bid.

The protesters want to be with EU, want low discount loans, and don't want austerity. Basically they want Russia to provide financial assistance to Ukraine, and EU to accept them with extreme expediency. They should also demand a little pony for every Ukrainian kid; it'd be just as realistic.

I'm sure that the fact THIS particular Europhile isn't supporting the Ukrainian Europhiles' requests did not escape you.

The EU is a lot of things, both good and bad (the latter especially with the EPP/PPE at the helm!), but sure it's not a provider of magic solutions to local problems of member or associate countries.

[Shofercia]

The protesters want to be with EU, want low discount loans, and don't want austerity. Basically they want Russia to provide financial assistance to Ukraine, and EU to accept them with extreme expediency. They should also demand a little pony for every Ukrainian kid; it'd be just as realistic.

I'm sure that the fact THIS particular Europhile isn't supporting the Ukrainian Europhiles' requests did not escape you.

The EU is a lot of things, both good and bad (the latter especially with the EPP/PPE at the helm!), but sure it's not a provider of magic solutions to local problems of member or associate countries.

Well aware of that Ris

Neither is Italy. When it comes to Ukraine, there are two blocs in the EU. One is led by the UK, and is anti-Russian, and another is led by Germany-Italy, and is pro-Russian. Which is why EU's policies are often very confusing for your average Russian.

EU under the Germany/Italian presidency: "We must enhance cooperation with our strategic Russian partners!"
The presidency rotate to Sweden the next day.
EU under the Swedish, (actually British,) presidency: "Russia is the evil country in Europe, and must be destroyed!"

Russia's response:

It's the same with Ukraine. Brits & Co want Ukraine in the EU to hit Russia. GI's want Ukraine in to lure Russia in. So you have Brits & Co willing to fund Ukraine's membership, and GI's going "lol, nope". That's why the best EU can offer Ukraine is a long trek to membership and austerity.

So it's not that Russia "won" Ukraine from the EU. The Russians were the only ones with a solution that didn't reside in some magical kingdom. That's why Russia won. When you're the only realist, it's not hard to win.

[Risottia]

Neither is Italy. When it comes to Ukraine, there are two blocs in the EU. One is led by the UK, and is anti-Russian, and another is led by Germany-Italy, and is pro-Russian. Which is why EU's policies are often very confusing for your average Russian.

EU under the Germany/Italian presidency: "We must enhance cooperation with our strategic Russian partners!"
The presidency rotate to Sweden the next day.
EU under the Swedish, (actually British,) presidency: "Russia is the evil country in Europe, and must be destroyed!"

Russia's response:

Quite accurate in its brevity.

It's the same with Ukraine. Brits & Co want Ukraine in the EU to hit Russia. GI's want Ukraine in to lure Russia in. So you have Brits & Co willing to fund Ukraine's membership, and GI's going "lol, nope". That's why the best EU can offer Ukraine is a long trek to membership and austerity.

Unless the Socialists win the next EU elections. Then we might see (and I underline "might") a way of stabilising our budgets other than just cutting down social services and raising VAT, and maybe stuff like cutting down corporate welfare and raising taxes on capital gain instead.

[Valenfel]

A well organized, large revolt is happening in the Ukraine.

There have been several, several clashes between protesters and police.

Here is a link to reddit, lots and lots of stuff here: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comme ... troversial

Here is a livestream link (from reddit) if you are too lazy to check the reddit link: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out

So, nationstates, I don't know about you, but as a US Citizen, I sincerely hope for a revolt of this kind in the United States.

My heart soars to see the people of the Ukraine uniting against a corrupt government. Don't hold me to this, but people are saying that there has been no looting and the like (people using the revolt as a chance for personal material gain).

[Risottia]

Already a thread on this:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=271354

[Towson]

Meanwhile in another universe.

A well organized, large revolt is happening in Canada. Against the Pro-American/Communist government. (It's also against a Communist Government.)

[Valenfel]

Already a thread on this:

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=271354

didn't see it on the front page, I was excited.

[EUstan]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

[Hurdegaryp]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

[Risottia]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

Considering how there's a pro-Russian cabinet and a rather large Russophile opinion group in Ukraine, I hardly see the need for an explanation involving foreign agent provocateurs when a local and simpler explanation is fully available.

[Pravengria]

our mightiest statesman, Vladimir Putin[/url]

As a Russian, Putin can go rot in a hole.

[EUstan]

This protests are another clash between the progressive pro-EU Ukrainians and the backward russophiles who loves more Russia than their own country. Putin is sending agent-provokateurs among the protestors to give the "Ukrainian" government legitimacy to ban protesting.

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

Yes, the USSR and Stalin were making economic.discrimination in the Ukraine. Thoose region with russophile majority were industrialised as a reward while western Ukraine was having Gladomor and was been provincialised for years.

A factor for russophilia in Ukraine is the Russian orthodox church which is making indoctrinasation of the religious people by convincing them that unity with Russia is something holy and that thoose who admire the West are somehow sinners.

[Hurdegaryp]

That might very well be true, since that is a tradition dating back to the stalinist era.

Yes, the USSR and Stalin were making economic.discrimination in the Ukraine. Thoose region with russophile majority were industrialised as a reward while western Ukraine was having Gladomor and was been provincialised for years.

A factor for russophilia in Ukraine is the Russian orthodox church which is making indoctrinasation of the religious people by convincing them that unity with Russia is something holy and that thoose who admire the West are somehow sinners.

Goddamn clergy, always sticking their grubby noses where they should not be. Russia used to have a better record in the field of separating state and church.

[Pravengria]

Yes, the USSR and Stalin were making economic.discrimination in the Ukraine. Thoose region with russophile majority were industrialised as a reward while western Ukraine was having Gladomor and was been provincialised for years.

A factor for russophilia in Ukraine is the Russian orthodox church which is making indoctrinasation of the religious people by convincing them that unity with Russia is something holy and that thoose who admire the West are somehow sinners.

Goddamn clergy, always sticking their grubby noses where they should not be. Russia used to have a better record in the field of separating state and church.

Well at the time, the church really didn't exist. Which might not have been such a bad thing, but that's out of my own bias.

[CTALNH]

What a shame. I feel really sorry for the Ukrainians. I've been to the country about a dozen times, and it's in a really bad state. This could've helped the country a lot.

Yes because it tottally helped my country a lot.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Yes, the USSR and Stalin were making economic.discrimination in the Ukraine. Thoose region with russophile majority were industrialised as a reward while western Ukraine was having Gladomor and was been provincialised for years.

A factor for russophilia in Ukraine is the Russian orthodox church which is making indoctrinasation of the religious people by convincing them that unity with Russia is something holy and that thoose who admire the West are somehow sinners.

Goddamn clergy, always sticking their grubby noses where they should not be. Russia used to have a better record in the field of separating state and church.

Considering that, in both the Russian Empire and Soviet Union the church was effectively absorbed by the state, I can't really say that it's surprising.

[Ashmoria]

I think its best to drop the "THE" now that Ukraine is an independent country.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I think its best to drop the "THE" now that Ukraine is an independent country.

Yep. Nobody says [in English] the Russia, the China, the England, the Japan, the Pakistan, etc.

[Bulgar Rouge]

Ukraine joining would be a good excuse to tell Turkey, "well, we're already too large, no need of you nao". But Ukrainians are foolish if they think joining the EU will bring much change to their country. It might even be the opposite.

[EUstan]

Goddamn clergy, always sticking their grubby noses where they should not be. Russia used to have a better record in the field of separating state and church.

Considering that, in both the Russian Empire and Soviet Union the church was effectively absorbed by the state, I can't really say that it's surprising.

In both cases the ROC has always promoting the official policy of the Russian government just like today (great Russian policy, russophilia and Russian asimilation of non-russian people).

[Atelia]

I think its best to drop the "THE" now that Ukraine is an independent country.

Yep. Nobody says [in English] the Russia, the China, the England, the Japan, the Pakistan, etc.

But they do say The Czech Republic, and The Bahama's.

[Farnhamia]

Yep. Nobody says [in English] the Russia, the China, the England, the Japan, the Pakistan, etc.

But they do say The Czech Republic, and The Bahama's.

And "the Ukraine" used to be the commonest way of referring to the country in English but the government there has asked that the article be dropped. Saying just "Ukraine" does feel a little odd but I'll probably get over it in a hundred years or so.

[Caraani]

What a shame. I feel really sorry for the Ukrainians. I've been to the country about a dozen times, and it's in a really bad state. This could've helped the country a lot.

Joining the EU will not solve the economic problems, not least because Putin will unleash retaliatory sanctions. Furthermore there are plenty of poor countries, like Romania, in the EU. It isn't some silver bullet.

Here you go, just for you.Do not talk bullthing about the breadbasket of Europe and the engine of Nazi Germany.We may look poor, but we never were, aren't and we never will be.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

But they do say The Czech Republic, and The Bahama's.

And "the Ukraine" used to be the commonest way of referring to the country in English but the government there has asked that the article be dropped. Saying just "Ukraine" does feel a little odd but I'll probably get over it in a hundred years or so.

In Portugal people say "em França" instead of "na França". It feels like the most bizarre thing ever.

[Kyuji]

Ukraine joining would be a good excuse to tell Turkey, "well, we're already too large, no need of you nao". But Ukrainians are foolish if they think joining the EU will bring much change to their country. It might even be the opposite.

Endless status quo?