Ukrainian Crisis

[Desp]

Just because inaction is an action does not make it justifiable for the other side to go out of their way and make matters worse.

Yes but according to western media... This whole conflict started because the Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. The EUs Inaction shows how much they really want Ukraine to join them.

The whole conflicted started in November of 2013 when Pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych made an instant refusal of a large EU-Ukrainian trade agreement that had been years in the making, while taking an under the table 15 billion dollar bailout package from Russia. Its only been a few weeks since protests succeeded in Kiev, the president was impeached by the Ukrainian Parliament , and Russia started taking threatening action.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

"Only governments Russia accepts as legitimate are legitimate."
"Nonetheless, we promise Yanukovych also said it'd be O-K if we went into Crimea. You can tell in this letter from him from March the first!"
"Oh, there have been Russians deployed in the Crimea since February twenty-seventh you say? Well...the new Crimean government is legitimate and asked us for aid after all."
"Why are they legitimate? We said so. That's how this works! Why's everybody picking on me! You guys did it too! Remember KOSOVO or IRAQ! You can't condemn US! WE WILL BURY YOU!
*cough*
I mean, we will not stand this blatant Russophobia!

[Jinwoy]

Mhm. Who holds the most seats?
Please say it loudly and clearly so everyone can hear. c:

The Party of Regions has the most seats of any party (127) but they are outnumbered by the combined coalition of the government. Even without any of the Svoboda seats, the governing coalition would still command a majority.

In the governing coalition, Batkivshchyna has the most seats.

Thank you for answering the question properly, rather than referring to coalition which isn't an individual party, which is what I was asking.

[Srboslavija]

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

Are you seriously calling UDAR, Batkivshchyna and EDG Neo-Nazis? You REALLY need to tone down the rhetoric.

Klitschko's UDAR were not included in current interim "regime", they were seen as too liberal for the likes of Svoboda.

But let's continue to ignore that.

[Neoconstantius]

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

Probably is. It's amazing how far a simple fig leaf goes in the domain of rhetoric, isn't it?

It's amazing how many self-righteous assumptions are spewed on NSG, isn't it?

@RD: source.

[Neoconstantius]

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

"Only governments Russia accepts as legitimate are legitimate."
"Nonetheless, we promise Yanukovych also said it'd be O-K if we went into Crimea. You can tell in this letter from him from March the first!"
"Oh, there have been Russians deployed in the Crimea since February twenty-seventh you say? Well...the new Crimean government is legitimate and asked us for aid after all."
"Why are they legitimate? We said so. That's how this works! Why's everybody picking on me! You guys did it too! Remember KOSOVO or IRAQ! You can't condemn US! WE WILL BURY YOU!
*cough*
I mean, we will not stand this blatant Russophobia!

Ooh, almost cut myself on this post.

[Shofercia]

No. I was simply pointing out a case where a De Jure Mexican Government would be a threat to the US. That's why that post had the words "Mexico" & "US" in it, and lacked words such as "Maidan" but hey, good strawman. Cookie?

Pointless point is pointless.

So pointless that you devoted an entire post to it...

But..but...

You rarely do. It's normally, "yes I don't like his LGBT stance, however....<insert blah blah blah here> about how great and good he is here."

All this effort you're putting into attacking me, is it worth it for you?

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

Please enlighten us, when have you not defended Putin?

Considering that I made a post in this very thread on that... and you missed it, why would I want to enlighten you?

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

It's the Ukrainian's land. They can decide what can be built on it or not.

A military base can be considered the land of the country to whom the base belongs, depending on the treaty. For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_and_Dhekelia

[Mike the Progressive]

1) Being part of the USSR is irrelevant as Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954 (1952? Somewhere in there)
2) Russia renounced any claim on the Crimean peninsula. Both as the primary member in the USSR, and as the Russian Federation.
3) Defection protests aren't grounds for invasion.
3) b) These protests are not in the majority. Someone linked to a study a bit earlier, but at the last election for the Crimean council the pro-Russia 'Russian Unity' party won 4% of votes.

They aren't technically invading, but "protecting" so the direct land claims aren't needed.

It's invading when you cross into a country, whose borders you recognized only weeks ago (for several decades btw), and annex it unilaterally. Now we can sugarcoat the shit here and say "well it was part of Russia, so really why aren't we debating how part of France belongs to GB?" We can say "hey ethnic tensions, and we are just trying to stop a possible genocide" although I can't help but think of poor Darfur, 11 years and going, where genocide has been occurring and could most certainly use this new, noble foreign policy Russia has embraced.

But really I know we are all smarter than that. So let's just say it for what it is. Russia treats their neighbors as Wayne Brady treats his hoes in that one Chapelle skit and now Putin is just "gonna have to choke a bitch."

[Occupied Deutschland]

"Only governments Russia accepts as legitimate are legitimate."
"Nonetheless, we promise Yanukovych also said it'd be O-K if we went into Crimea. You can tell in this letter from him from March the first!"
"Oh, there have been Russians deployed in the Crimea since February twenty-seventh you say? Well...the new Crimean government is legitimate and asked us for aid after all."
"Why are they legitimate? We said so. That's how this works! Why's everybody picking on me! You guys did it too! Remember KOSOVO or IRAQ! You can't condemn US! WE WILL BURY YOU!
*cough*
I mean, we will not stand this blatant Russophobia!

Ooh, almost cut myself on this post.

Do all Pro-Russia people have their senses of humor removed, or is it just you?

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

So, enough bullshit. Now that it's obvious Vladimir Putin is a colossal prick who supports a corrupt idiot, what can be done about it? Putin is a cold bastard. Would he send thousands of Russians and Europeans into a pointless war over a bribe that didn't follow through?

[Regnum Dominae]

Probably is. It's amazing how far a simple fig leaf goes in the domain of rhetoric, isn't it?

It's amazing how many self-righteous assumptions are spewed on NSG, isn't it?

@RD: source.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/f ... ian-gunmen

[Estruia]

Are you seriously calling UDAR, Batkivshchyna and EDG Neo-Nazis? You REALLY need to tone down the rhetoric.

Klitschko's UDAR were not included in current interim "regime", they were seen as too liberal for the likes of Svoboda.

But let's continue to ignore that.

Seriously, you need to shut up already. UDAR is part of the Coalition that controls the Verkhovna Rada. If you had a single iota of proper information on the matter, you would know that.

[Regnum Dominae]

Are you seriously calling UDAR, Batkivshchyna and EDG Neo-Nazis? You REALLY need to tone down the rhetoric.

Klitschko's UDAR were not included in current interim "regime", they were seen as too liberal for the likes of Svoboda.

But let's continue to ignore that.

Which is why UDAR is part of the transitional government coalition. Right.

[Tahar Joblis]

I've said it once before.
Its in one ear - out the other.

They are just attempting to maintain their access to Black Sea not eat Ukraine like most people seem to think.

If only Russia had Black Sea coastline of its own... waitaminute... ok, let's try to salvage that, if only they had their own Black Sea port ... hangongimmeanotherminute ... uh ...

... uh

Hm. Maybe Turkey's demanding that they invade Crimea, or else Turkey will bar Russian navy ships from passing through the straits? No, that's not it either...

OK, you tell me, I'm out of guesses, you explain how Russia is merely "attempting to maintain their access to Black Sea."

[Shofercia]

Ooh, almost cut myself on this post.

Do all Pro-Russia people have their senses of humor removed, or is it just you?

Do all anti-Russia people hide their attacks under the guise of humor, or is it just you?

[Bosnakia]

In November I was speculating on a Russian invasion of Ukraine in a hypothetical citation of Ukraine joined the EU and my mental hypothetical cituation has come true. A Russian invasion be the best if you think about it. The stability of Ukraine has officially gone down the crapper and it's obvious The Ukrainian government can't handle riots the Don Cossacks where called in at the beginning of this. A Russian invasion of Ukraine would have poitions set up in Ros-On-Don in Russia and near Chernobyl at the Ukranian-Belarussian border. The current Ukrainian government is Pro-Moscow so the military of Ukraine would serve with Russian and possibly Belarussian soldiers in this invasion. And who knows maybe Ukraine would become a Republic of the Russian Fediration. Be kinda cool Russia could than also restablize Ukraine. They fixed up Chechnya pretty well.

[Warda]

They aren't technically invading, but "protecting" so the direct land claims aren't needed.

It's invading when you cross into a country, whose borders you recognized only weeks ago (for several decades btw), and annex it unilaterally. Now we can sugarcoat the shit here and say "well it was part of Russia, so really why aren't we debating how part of France belongs to GB?" We can say "hey ethnic tensions, and we are just trying to stop a possible genocide" although I can't help but think of poor Darfur, 11 years and going, where genocide has been occurring and could most certainly use this new, noble foreign policy Russia has embraced.

Because really I know we are all smarter than that. So let's just say it for what it is. Russia treats their neighbors as Wayne Brady treats his hoes in that one Chapelle skit and now Putin is just "gonna have to choke a bitch."

ok

[Nanovia]

You know what the whole Ukrainian thing reminds me of? Tom Clancy's Command Authority.

[Regnum Dominae]

In November I was speculating on a Russian invasion of Ukraine in a hypothetical citation of Ukraine joined the EU and my mental hypothetical cituation has come true. A Russian invasion be the best if you think about it. The stability of Ukraine has officially gone down the crapper and it's obvious The Ukrainian government can't handle riots the Don Cossacks where called in at the beginning of this. A Russian invasion of Ukraine would have poitions set up in Ros-On-Don in Russia and near Chernobyl at the Ukranian-Belarussian border. The current Ukrainian government is Pro-Moscow so the military of Ukraine would serve with Russian and possibly Belarussian soldiers in this invasion. And who knows maybe Ukraine would become a Republic of the Russian Fediration. Be kinda cool Russia could than also restablize Ukraine. They fixed up Chechnya pretty well.

Wait. What?

[Jinwoy]

In November I was speculating on a Russian invasion of Ukraine in a hypothetical citation of Ukraine joined the EU and my mental hypothetical cituation has come true. A Russian invasion be the best if you think about it. The stability of Ukraine has officially gone down the crapper and it's obvious The Ukrainian government can't handle riots the Don Cossacks where called in at the beginning of this. A Russian invasion of Ukraine would have poitions set up in Ros-On-Don in Russia and near Chernobyl at the Ukranian-Belarussian border. The current Ukrainian government is Pro-Moscow so the military of Ukraine would serve with Russian and possibly Belarussian soldiers in this invasion. And who knows maybe Ukraine would become a Republic of the Russian Fediration. Be kinda cool Russia could than also restablize Ukraine. They fixed up Chechnya pretty well.

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

[Regnum Dominae]

BBC:

"Ukraine's Customs Service is reporting a 'gathering of military machines' in the Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk regions just across the Russian border, according to Evhen Perebyinis, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry."

[Desp]

Nonetheless, has anyone been able to determine effective sources of action by the U.S., EU, or NATO that have a chance of resolving the situation? ATM A military threat from the U.S. would only make things worse, and be laughable after the 'red-line' situation with Syria, However Could the Ukraine attempt to start joining NATO? I can;t recall the source, but I believe the NATO supreme commander left them a standing offer after Yanukovych told them no. Maybe the US could mitigate the natural gas chip by offering our own deal, seeing as how the U.S. has a large supply of it. Other than that, I feel it would be best for other European nations such as Poland, Germany, And France to offer assistance.

Any Ideas on how this could be Resolved?

[Neoconstantius]

Ooh, almost cut myself on this post.

Do all Pro-Russia people have their senses of humor removed, or is it just you?

Oh, Crimea river. Do all Pro-Western people have snark to hide behind?

See? Humor.

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

In November I was speculating on a Russian invasion of Ukraine in a hypothetical citation of Ukraine joined the EU and my mental hypothetical cituation has come true. A Russian invasion be the best if you think about it. The stability of Ukraine has officially gone down the crapper and it's obvious The Ukrainian government can't handle riots the Don Cossacks where called in at the beginning of this. A Russian invasion of Ukraine would have poitions set up in Ros-On-Don in Russia and near Chernobyl at the Ukranian-Belarussian border. The current Ukrainian government is Pro-Moscow so the military of Ukraine would serve with Russian and possibly Belarussian soldiers in this invasion. And who knows maybe Ukraine would become a Republic of the Russian Fediration. Be kinda cool Russia could than also restablize Ukraine. They fixed up Chechnya pretty well.

The Russian campaign of reconstruction failed. They wasted $2 billion dollars. The economy of Chechnya has simply rebounded because Russian troops stopped killing Chechens randomly.

[Srboslavija]

BBC:

"Ukraine's Customs Service is reporting a 'gathering of military machines' in the Kharkiv, Luhansk and Donetsk regions just across the Russian border, according to Evhen Perebyinis, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry."

Credible sources pls.