Ukrainian Crisis

[Seattile]

You do have a reputation for being the first person to defend Russia/Putin whenever there's a topic in which negative opinions about Russia/Putin are given.

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

Please enlighten us, when have you not defended Putin?

[Oaledonia]

Really? Because then you'd know it's not a "tool" for master-debaters such as yourself. It's not some "Goodwin, ha your argument and point is invalid." But simply the likelihood of hitler being mentioned. That's it. It's not anything else.

Then it's a good think that I haven't actually debated anything.

So "Goodwin's law much?" would be you simply acknowledging that hitler was mentioned. Not that because he was mentioned, he is being hyperbolic and therefore has no point.

Unfortunately being deadpan doesn't translate well over the internet, though the snippy response was cute.

[Srboslavija]

Old Regime.

Getting rid of a highly controversial 2 year old law is not grounds for invasion.

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

[Geilinor]

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

There was no anti-Russian policy.

[Regnum Dominae]

No, they aren't. Ethnic Russians (and Russian-speaking Ukrainians) are still free to speak Russian.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that removal of the co-official status of a minority language is grounds for invasion?

Such as?

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

Svoboda has 36 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the 250 total seats held by the governing coalition. That's not a "majority".
Svoboda also holds 5 of the 20 ministerial positions. Once again, not a "majority".

[Estruia]

Agreed. If Putin's invasion of Crimea doesn't scream "Sudetenland", I don't know what does.

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

Um. No it wasn't. It was part of the Ukrainian SSR, which was part of the USSR.

[Warda]

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

1) Being part of the USSR is irrelevant as Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954 (1952? Somewhere in there)
2) Russia renounced any claim on the Crimean peninsula. Both as the primary member in the USSR, and as the Russian Federation.
3) Defection protests aren't grounds for invasion.
3) b) These protests are not in the majority. Someone linked to a study a bit earlier, but at the last election for the Crimean council the pro-Russia 'Russian Unity' party won 4% of votes.

They aren't technically invading, but "protecting" so the direct land claims aren't needed.

[Tahar Joblis]

No, they aren't. Ethnic Russians (and Russian-speaking Ukrainians) are still free to speak Russian.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that removal of the co-official status of a minority language is grounds for invasion?

Such as?

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

I've heard that some country called "Poland" got invaded by Nazi Germany. I wonder how concerned Poland is about the rise of a Neo-Nazi Ukraine right on its border.

After all, they're vigorously moving troops and calling for NATO to act.

Oh, wait. They're more concerned about Putin's talk about ethnic Russians and Putin invading the Ukraine.

[Neoconstantius]

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

Please enlighten us, when have you not defended Putin?

Ad hom much?

[Jinwoy]

Getting rid of a highly controversial 2 year old law is not grounds for invasion.

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

I've said it once before.
Its in one ear - out the other.

[Jinwoy]

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

Svoboda has 36 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the 250 total seats held by the governing coalition. That's not a "majority".
Svoboda also holds 5 of the 20 ministerial positions. Once again, not a "majority".

Mhm. Who holds the most seats?
Please say it loudly and clearly so everyone can hear. c:

[Geilinor]

Getting rid of a highly controversial 2 year old law is not grounds for invasion.

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

Read the Criticism section on the Wiki page. It arguably violates the Ukrainian constitution. Also, the government is elected. It was put in place by the elected legislature of Ukraine, which is how parliamentary systems work.

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

Ooh, they hurt Russia's feelings. Fucking kill them. Harsh words should always be followed by violence.

Also, no, of course not they're suppressing anyone. They're only invading the country.

Getting rid of a highly controversial 2 year old law is not grounds for invasion.

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

It's the Ukrainian's land. They can decide what can be built on it or not.

[Mike the Progressive]

Really? Because then you'd know it's not a "tool" for master-debaters such as yourself. It's not some "Goodwin, ha your argument and point is invalid." But simply the likelihood of hitler being mentioned. That's it. It's not anything else.

Then it's a good think that I haven't actually debated anything.

Of course not, at the magical mention of Godwin, your opponent has fallen flat on his ass, defeated and most certainly dead.

So "Goodwin's law much?" would be you simply acknowledging that hitler was mentioned. Not that because he was mentioned, he is being hyperbolic and therefore has no point.

Unfortunately being deadpan doesn't translate well over the internet, though the snippy response was cute.

Thank you, but I was actually going for "snarky."

[Estruia]

No, they aren't. Ethnic Russians (and Russian-speaking Ukrainians) are still free to speak Russian.

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that removal of the co-official status of a minority language is grounds for invasion?

Such as?

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

Are you seriously calling UDAR, Batkivshchyna and EDG Neo-Nazis? You REALLY need to tone down the rhetoric.

[Regnum Dominae]

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

[Jinwoy]

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

I've heard that some country called "Poland" got invaded by Nazi Germany. I wonder how concerned Poland is about the rise of a Neo-Nazi Ukraine right on its border.

After all, they're vigorously moving troops and calling for NATO to act.

Oh, wait. They're more concerned about Putin's talk about ethnic Russians and Putin invading the Ukraine.

Considering that the Soviet Occupation of Poland was more recent than Nazi Germany, I would say that they are worried about Russia gaining more influence on its border.

[Warda]

It was a starting point, because the interim, un-elected Ukranian government is made up of parties which want to re-neg on the 2010 Kharkov Agreement - the one that legally keeps Russian bases in Crimea until 2042.

Is it becoming any clearer now as to why Russia wasn't going to sit idly by?

I've said it once before.
Its in one ear - out the other.

They are just attempting to maintain their access to Black Sea not eat Ukraine like most people seem to think.

[Shofercia]

I hope Russia's dreams come true and that they win a nice, big Ukraine.

Besides, all Russia has to do to bankrupt Ukraine and the EU is raise their natural gas prices by about 10%.

Can't raise the market price for gas, unless you're willing to cut demand. Russia & EU's gas deal is for the market price.

You don't think that if the cartels in Mexico took over the Mexican Government that would pose a threat to the US, even if they could get the Mexican Legislature to vote for them?

Considering who is currently president and his party's history, there's a good chance that's already happening or going to be the case very soon. Yet, you do not see us rushing in as American citizens are dying. Because you're not suppose to!

I certainly hope that US president intervenes if Mexico starts waging a covert war against the US. Again, I'm not saying this is the case with Russia and Ukraine. I am saying that sometimes De Facto > De Jure. Considering that the boss of the Sinaloa Cartel has been arrested, I'm not seeing that, but I'm just saying, that if that happened, I'd be ready for war.

[Geilinor]

Svoboda has 36 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the 250 total seats held by the governing coalition. That's not a "majority".
Svoboda also holds 5 of the 20 ministerial positions. Once again, not a "majority".

Mhm. Who holds the most seats?
Please say it loudly and clearly so everyone can hear. c:

Which coalition holds the most seats?
How do you still not understand parliaments?

[Oaledonia]

Of course not, at the magical mention of Godwin, your opponent has fallen flat on his ass, defeated and most certainly dead.

That's the point, probably should've added the

Thank you, but I was actually going for "snarky."

Needed to be more passive-aggressive.

[Geilinor]

Mhm. Who holds the most seats?
Please say it loudly and clearly so everyone can hear. c:

Which coalition holds the most seats?
How do you still not understand parliaments?

[Regnum Dominae]

Svoboda has 36 seats in the Verkhovna Rada, out of the 250 total seats held by the governing coalition. That's not a "majority".
Svoboda also holds 5 of the 20 ministerial positions. Once again, not a "majority".

Mhm. Who holds the most seats?
Please say it loudly and clearly so everyone can hear. c:

The Party of Regions has the most seats of any party (127) but they are outnumbered by the combined coalition of the government. Even without any of the Svoboda seats, the governing coalition would still command a majority.

In the governing coalition, Batkivshchyna has the most seats.

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

Oh, come on, you're overreacting. BOOM, it's like happy festival fireworks!

[Tahar Joblis]

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

Erm... are you forgetting that this happened after pro-Russian militants armed with RPGs and sniper rifles stormed the Crimean parliament building, held the MPs hostage, blocked off all telecommunications access with the outside world, and forced the Parliament to oust its previous PM and vote in a new PM from a relatively obscure Pro-Russian party which had received only 4 percent of the vote in the most recent election?

Probably is. It's amazing how far a simple fig leaf goes in the domain of rhetoric, isn't it?