Ukrainian Crisis

[Desp]

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

The EU isn't helping Either. Its been a few months now and nothing has been done by them.

Just because inaction is an action does not make it justifiable for the other side to go out of their way and make matters worse.

[Shofercia]

True, but it doesn't mean that I support Putin on those issues, or that I agree with Putin on everything except for the anti-LGBT stuff. And yet "Mike the so called Progressive", instead of debating, goes out of his way to portray me as "Putin's Poodle"

You do have a reputation for being the first person to defend Russia/Putin whenever there's a topic in which negative opinions about Russia/Putin are given.

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

[Regnum Dominae]

The minority languages bill passed in 2012. Ethnic Russians could speak Russian freely before 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

Old Regime.

What do you mean?

[Mike the Progressive]

God... I just don't... are you... do you even know what godwin law is?

God... I just don't... are you... yes, yes I do.

Really? Because then you'd know it's not a "tool" for master-debaters such as yourself. It's not some "Goodwin, ha your argument and point is invalid." But simply the likelihood of hitler being mentioned. That's it. It's not anything else.

So "Goodwin's law much?" would be you simply acknowledging that hitler was mentioned. Not that because he was mentioned, he is being hyperbolic and therefore has no point.

[Srboslavija]

Yeah, I admitted that that specific allegation, which was originally made yesterday, likely turned out to be false.

That doesn't change the fact that the Russian forces are blockading and besieging Ukrainian military installations.

Actually it's MUCH different from your claims of threats of murder made towards innocent people.

As for your claims of sieges, invasions and impending doom - someone should send the locals in Crimea a few BBC links;

Pointing to the Russian soldiers around him, he added: “This isn’t occupation; this is a gift.”

----

As he worked to keep the intensifying crowd calm and fresh Russian troops replaced those who had stood guard throughout the night, life went on as usual in the typically sleepy valley town of Perevalnoye.

Children laughed and played in the yards of nearby apartment complexes, old men ate sunflower seeds and chatted on benches, buses ran as usual and stores were open for business.

Vera Kanayeva, a Perevalnoye resident since 1953, said that not much had changed since the Russian troops had come to town.

“It was quiet here in the Soviet Union, and it’s quiet here now,” she said.

https://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/russian-soldiers-besiege-ukrainian-military-base-near-simferopol-338231.html

I guess KyivPost is unreliable now, lol?

[Geilinor]

The minority languages bill passed in 2012. Ethnic Russians could speak Russian freely before 2012. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine

Old Regime.

Getting rid of a highly controversial 2 year old law is not grounds for invasion.

[Vitaphone Racing]

You missed the point entirely.
The point is that they are moving on the rights of Ethnic Russians.

No, they aren't. Ethnic Russians (and Russian-speaking Ukrainians) are still free to speak Russian.

Why else would Russia intervene?

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that removal of the co-official status of a minority language is grounds for invasion?

(Excluding the other obvious and far more interesting and truthful reasons)

Such as?

Jinwoy has a point. If Ukraine no longer lists Russian as an official language then government services are no longer obligated to print or distribute information in Russian. That's plain dickish whichever way you look at it.

[Estado Paulista]

You don't think that if the cartels in Mexico took over the Mexican Government that would pose a threat to the US, even if they could get the Mexican Legislature to vote for them?

Did you really just compare the Maidan protesters to the Mexican cartels?

[Costa Fierro]

You do have a reputation for being the first person to defend Russia/Putin whenever there's a topic in which negative opinions about Russia/Putin are given.

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

But..but...

[Tahar Joblis]

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

They didn't have much of a choice, with the Ukraine moving on to them by banning minority languages and taking away the semi-autonomy status of Crimea against the wishes of the people living there...
Seriously, if Russia was the US, we would have seen a full scale invasion by now.

Nobody is banning languages. All that's been dickered over is the political status of languages as official languages.

There are 29 states that have declared English to be an official language, and one that has declared Hawaiian to be an official language. None, including, interestingly enough, California, where lots of things are presented in Spanish anyway, have Spanish as an official language.

Russia objecting to Ukrainians removing the official language status of Russian would be like Britain objecting to India removing the official language status of English... or Mexico objecting to California passing a resolution saying that English, and only English, is the official language of California.

It's certainly nothing near casus belli.

[Regnum Dominae]

Yeah, I admitted that that specific allegation, which was originally made yesterday, likely turned out to be false.

That doesn't change the fact that the Russian forces are blockading and besieging Ukrainian military installations.

Actually it's MUCH different from your claims of threats of murder made towards innocent people.

As for your claims of sieges, invasions and impending doom - someone should send the locals in Crimea a few BBC links;

Pointing to the Russian soldiers around him, he added: “This isn’t occupation; this is a gift.”

----

As he worked to keep the intensifying crowd calm and fresh Russian troops replaced those who had stood guard throughout the night, life went on as usual in the typically sleepy valley town of Perevalnoye.

Children laughed and played in the yards of nearby apartment complexes, old men ate sunflower seeds and chatted on benches, buses ran as usual and stores were open for business.

Vera Kanayeva, a Perevalnoye resident since 1953, said that not much had changed since the Russian troops had come to town.

“It was quiet here in the Soviet Union, and it’s quiet here now,” she said.

https://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/russian-soldiers-besiege-ukrainian-military-base-near-simferopol-338231.html

I guess KyivPost is unreliable now, lol?

The "typically sleepy valley town of Perevalnoye" is not a Ukrainian military installation. Must I remind you that Ukrainian military bases are currently under active siege by hostile Russian forces?

None of this stuff you've been posting has any real relevance. If you want to cherrypick, I can do it too

[Jinwoy]

You missed the point entirely.
The point is that they are moving on the rights of Ethnic Russians.

No, they aren't. Ethnic Russians (and Russian-speaking Ukrainians) are still free to speak Russian.

Why else would Russia intervene?

Are you SERIOUSLY saying that removal of the co-official status of a minority language is grounds for invasion?

(Excluding the other obvious and far more interesting and truthful reasons)

Such as?

You are putting words in my mouth. I have yet to endorse or condemn the Russian invasion.

The Regime change - an ally of Russia displaced by *gasp* Pro-Westerners!
The Regime change again - a neo-nazi movement now holds the majority. If memories are still sore from what happened in World War 2, which they really should be since in a nazi government no one wins (Unless you were born in Austria).
Aren't those far more interesting to invade a country rather than "THEY R NOT TREATING US LEIK GODS WE SHULD INVADE!"

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

I don't know who the hell Vladimir Putin thinks he is, but taking a squat on the Ukrainian people's rights won't win him any political favours. So far, his only friend in all of this is literally Fat Bastard from the Austin Powers movies.

[Desp]

Agreed. If Putin's invasion of Crimea doesn't scream "Sudetenland", I don't know what does.

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

Actually the Soviet Union ceded the Crimea region to Ukraine in 1954. this week marks the 60th anniversary of Ukrainian Crimea.

[Shofercia]

You don't think that if the cartels in Mexico took over the Mexican Government that would pose a threat to the US, even if they could get the Mexican Legislature to vote for them?

Did you really just compare the Maidan protesters to the Mexican cartels?

No. I was simply pointing out a case where a De Jure Mexican Government would be a threat to the US. That's why that post had the words "Mexico" & "US" in it, and lacked words such as "Maidan" but hey, good strawman. Cookie?

[Microsol]

I hope Russia's dreams come true and that they win a nice, big Ukraine.

Besides, all Russia has to do to bankrupt Ukraine and the EU is raise their natural gas prices by about 10%.

[Mike the Progressive]

And Ukraine posed no threat to Russia. I mean remember earlier? you scoffing at the comparison that their military is any match for Russia? Or should the US have intervened in Mexico because an American got his head chopped off? Clearly a sign of the country in chaos and "ethnic tensions" about to erupt into a Holocaust 2.0.

You don't think that if the cartels in Mexico took over the Mexican Government that would pose a threat to the US, even if they could get the Mexican Legislature to vote for them?

Considering who is currently president and his party's history, there's a good chance that's already happening or going to be the case very soon. Yet, you do not see us rushing in as American citizens are dying. Because you're not suppose to!

[The Soviet Republic of America]

The EU isn't helping Either. Its been a few months now and nothing has been done by them.

Just because inaction is an action does not make it justifiable for the other side to go out of their way and make matters worse.

Yes but according to western media... This whole conflict started because the Ukrainians wanted to join the EU. The EUs Inaction shows how much they really want Ukraine to join them.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Agreed. If Putin's invasion of Crimea doesn't scream "Sudetenland", I don't know what does.

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

1) Being part of the USSR is irrelevant as Crimea has been part of Ukraine since 1954 (1952? Somewhere in there)
2) Russia renounced any claim on the Crimean peninsula. Both as the primary member in the USSR, and as the Russian Federation.
3) Defection protests aren't grounds for invasion.
3) b) These protests are not in the majority. Someone linked to a study a bit earlier, but at the last election for the Crimean council the pro-Russia 'Russian Unity' party won 4% of votes.

[Geilinor]

They didn't have much of a choice, with the Ukraine moving on to them by banning minority languages and taking away the semi-autonomy status of Crimea against the wishes of the people living there...
Seriously, if Russia was the US, we would have seen a full scale invasion by now.

Nobody is banning languages. All that's been dickered over is the political status of languages as official languages.

There are 29 states that have declared English to be an official language, and one that has declared Hawaiian to be an official language. Including, interestingly enough, California, where lots of things are presented in Spanish anyway.

Russia objecting to Ukrainians removing the official language status of Russian would be like Britain objecting to India removing the official language status of English... or Mexico objecting to California passing a resolution saying that English, and only English, is the official language of California.
It's certainly nothing near casus belli.

This^. Ukraine could easily have debated and settled the issue. The government isn't stopping anyone from commenting on legislation.

[The Holy Calradian Empire]

Did you really just compare the Maidan protesters to the Mexican cartels?

No. I was simply pointing out a case where a De Jure Mexican Government would be a threat to the US. That's why that post had the words "Mexico" & "US" in it, and lacked words such as "Maidan" but hey, good strawman. Cookie?

Pointless point is pointless.

[Warda]

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

Actually the Soviet Union ceded the Crimea region to Ukraine in 1954. this week marks the 60th anniversary of Ukrainian Crimea.

Its not like most of the Eastern Euro states weren't complete satellite states.

[Neoconstantius]

Since there is really no way for me to win this ill just quit. We should be trying to prevent a conflict in Ukraine instead of threatening to declare war on each other... if that doesn't work... Call me when the new government of Ukraine gets overthrown by the same people who placed them in power.

Then maybe Russia shouldn't have instigated the conflict by invading the Crimea to begin with, hmm?

Then maybe Ukraine shouldn't have instigated conflict with Russia with anti-Russian policy and rhetoric against the largest ethnic minority in the nation, hmm?

The government of Crimea declared that it held Kiev to be illegitimate, declared autonomy/independence, and requested Russian intervention to protect its sovereignty. It's simple, really. And we've yet to see the wholesale repression of dissenters and minorities (including Tatars) that was predicted.

It's funny, how so many see the Maidaners as valiant, grassroots patriots, and the Moskol as Russian plants/professional agitators. As if there isn't a plurality of ethnic Russians in the east and south.

[Guadalupador]

Except the Crimea was part of the former USSR 20 years ago and on own its on had numerous "defection" protest?

Actually the Soviet Union ceded the Crimea region to Ukraine in 1954. this week marks the 60th anniversary of Ukrainian Crimea.

Well I guess we can thank Khrushchev for this mess.

[Mike the Progressive]

Russia or Putin is kind of a big difference. As I said before, love the country, be skeptical of the leadership. And again, I don't defend Putin when I disagree with him.

But..but...

You rarely do. It's normally, "yes I don't like his LGBT stance, however....<insert blah blah blah here> about how great and good he is here."