Ukrainian Crisis

[Imperializt Russia]

Found out on tv that when Ukraine gave up its nukes that the major nations agreed to a special provision. That special provision on giving up the nukes called for Ukraine to remain whole. Which means that a divided or at least one part of it might not be recognized by the international community. Of course, I would think that there are ways around this.

Ukraine never had nuclear weapons to "give up". Unlike in the West, where the US liberally littered European countries with stockpiles of B61 gravity bombs and BGM-109G TELs, Soviet nuclear weapons stayed under the control of Russian forces, and upon the dissolution of the Soviet Union basically became Russian troops stranded in foreign countries. All Soviet states that had had Russian nuclear groups stationed within their territory dutifully returned the personnel and their equipment and weapons.

Well, eventually.
Ukraine "claimed" the weapons on their soil, but also affirmed never to use, manufacture or accept more.

[Risottia]

Ukraine is going to regret joining the EU.

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

[Draakonite]

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/bdc99cd ... rotest.jpg

"Anti-government protesters guard the the Ukrainian Parliament building in Kiev."
Which means they "conquered" it.

No, it doesn't.

http://tinyurl.com/mq8j33r
"Armed protesters"
Force parliament to sign a law (by the peace deal) which restores 2004 constitution http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/ukraine-protests-the-full-text-of-the-agreement-to-end-the-crisis/2014/02/21/e224faf8-9b07-11e3-975d-107dfef7b668_story.html

Source, Now.

So... first police defends parliament.
Then this happens: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 36488.html
Then protesters defend parliament.

How would you call it?


You see, the blue text isn't only gibberish, if you click on it, a new site opens, with the text of the peace agreement.
it beginns with this:

1. Within 48 hours of the signing of this agreement, a special law will be adopted, signed and promulgated, which will restore the Constitution of 2004 including amendments passed until now. Signatories declare their intention to create a coalition and form a national unity government within 10 days thereafter.

[Rabopari]

Found out on tv that when Ukraine gave up its nukes that the major nations agreed to a special provision. That special provision on giving up the nukes called for Ukraine to remain whole. Which means that a divided or at least one part of it might not be recognized by the international community. Of course, I would think that there are ways around this.

Ukraine never had nuclear weapons to "give up". Unlike in the West, where the US liberally littered European countries with stockpiles of B61 gravity bombs and BGM-109G TELs, Soviet nuclear weapons stayed under the control of Russian forces, and upon the dissolution of the Soviet Union basically became Russian troops stranded in foreign countries. All Soviet states that had had Russian nuclear groups stationed within their territory dutifully returned the personnel and their equipment and weapons.

Well, eventually.
Ukraine "claimed" the weapons on their soil, but also affirmed never to use, manufacture or accept more.

I think they still have them and they are ready to be fired. Or everybody forgot about them and they were left to rot OR they have been sold on the black market.

[Imperializt Russia]

Ukraine never had nuclear weapons to "give up". Unlike in the West, where the US liberally littered European countries with stockpiles of B61 gravity bombs and BGM-109G TELs, Soviet nuclear weapons stayed under the control of Russian forces, and upon the dissolution of the Soviet Union basically became Russian troops stranded in foreign countries. All Soviet states that had had Russian nuclear groups stationed within their territory dutifully returned the personnel and their equipment and weapons.

Well, eventually.
Ukraine "claimed" the weapons on their soil, but also affirmed never to use, manufacture or accept more.

I think they still have them and they are ready to be fired. Or everybody forgot about them and they were left to rot OR they have been sold on the black market.

No.
Almost if not all have been returned to Russia and almost all of those were immediately decommissioned.

Originally Ukrainian leader Leonid Kravchuk was "not worried" if nuclear weapons were sent to Russia for decommissioning. Gradually, however, his worries developed sufficiently to lead to him to reverse his position and on March 12, 1992 to suspend temporarily the transfer of tactical nuclear weapons to Russia. However, in conformity with the July 16, 1990 Declaration of State Sovereignty and other agreements signed at the creation of the Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), by May 1992 Ukraine voluntarily removed all tactical nuclear weapons (approximately 3,000) inherited from the former Soviet Union.

The trilateral agreement signed in Moscow on January 14, 1994 by the United States, Russia, and Ukraine was seen as a significant Western success in disarming Ukraine of nuclear weapons. Under the agreement, the Russian Federation sent 100 tons of fuel to Ukraine for its nuclear power plants. The United States agreed to pay $60 million to the Russian Federation in support of that process. For its part, Ukraine agreed to transfer 200 nuclear warheads over a 10-month period. Ukraine joined the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) as a non-nuclear weapon state in 1994. Ukraine signed the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty (CTBT) on February 23, 2001. With Ukraine’s signing of the CTBT, Eastern Europe became the first of the Treaty’s six geographical regions to fully meet the Treaty’s conditions to into effect.

As of May 1994, 120 SS-19 Stiletto and 60 SS-24 Scalpel ICBMs had been shipped out of Ukraine for reprocessing in Russia.

Ukraine announced in June 1996 that all warheads had been removed from the country. A problem arose in the removal of SS-19s, which use large amounts of a toxic substance known as heptyl. The United States sent storage tanks to hold 2,200 metric tons of the substance. After the SS-19 missiles were removed from combat duty, 19 were re-used in Russia.

In May 1997 Ukraine agreed to destroy its SS-24 missiles, in addition to SS-19 missiles, silos and launch sites, utilizing $47 million provided through the Nunn-Lugar Cooperative Threat Reduction Program. Withdrawal from combat duty of the SS-24 (RS-22) missiles started on July 1, 1998. Complete liquidation of ICBMs in Ukraine is planned to be completed by January 4, 2001. In September 1998 a US Department of Defense delegation, headed by Assistant Secretary of Defense Edward Warner, took part in the decommissioning of a SS-24 silo launcher in Pervomaisk, the Nikolayev region, Ukraine. The Pervomaisk base comprises 46 silos with SS-24 solid-fuel ICBMs. Decommissioning of a single silo launcher was estimated to cost about US $1 million, and the US Government allocated a total of US $399.2 million. The Bechtel Corporation was the main contractor in the decommissioning program of the Ukrainian silo launchers.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/ukraine/

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Ukraine is going to regret joining the EU.

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

As I said, the FTA will only worsen the social conditions of the country.

They bought their ticket into being the favela of Europe, and now no one will want to accept open borders with a nation full of people desperate to get out.

[Rabopari]

I think they still have them and they are ready to be fired. Or everybody forgot about them and they were left to rot OR they have been sold on the black market.

No.
Almost if not all have been returned to Russia and almost all of those were immediately decommissioned.

You cannot believe everything the government says

[EUstan]

There are doubt that the last Ukrainian presidential elections were rigged, so it is very possibly given that Ukraine has problems with democratic institutions.

Yes, Yanukovich is a oligarch candidate but his main donator in Rini Rahmetov (or however is his name is spelled) who is a russophile Tatar and who de facto controls the Donbass region.

Being a Russophile doesn't mean being pro-Putin.

Just like being an ukrainian patriot does not mean to be a neo-nazi. The Russian government should know that and unfortunately Yankuvych`s russian regime figured that too late.

Incorrect as usual EUstan. Those regions weren't Russified by Stalin. Those were Russian regions. There have always been more Russians that Ukrainians in Crimea. And I can also find nasty youtube videos of the other side doing just that.

The point of the video is not to show how violent Crimea is but how fanatic about Russia they are. I also had the Russian Empire on mind.

stalin was a Russian nationalist and his policies were pro-russian, the evidence to that is that even Lenin called him a greater Russian bully. Holdomor was a example, it was targeted against the western population of Ukraine to strenght the russian elements in Ukraine.

The Russian in Crimea should learn that their country is Ukraine and not Russia, I hope the new government will start to re-educated them through institutions.

Russian speaking doesn't mean pro-Russian. Svoboda are Neo Nazis, and there isn't much evidence on how Bandera fought against Nazis: http://hnn.us/article/122778

Hmm... Well I could quote also historians from the opposite side. Regardless about the debate about him, nobody is dening that he survived Sachsenhausen concentration camp: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Ban ... zi_Germany

This indicated that he was not a Nazi although he considered to do that at the begin and given that the Ukrainians thought that everything is better than Soviet rule in the early days of the war. Also, the USSR was allied with Nazi Germany 1939-1941.

Also, try again what makes the Freedom party nazi?
-they dont use Nazi iconography
-they dont have anything against blacks and other people of different color (at least there is any report in the media)
-they are in favour of signing of the FTA agreement with the EU, which is quite the opposite what ightist tend to do
-they are in favout of freedom of speech
-anybody hurt by them? (please some evidence that is not Russia today)
It seems they are just being called Nazis by the Russian media because they hold more radical view of ukrainian independece than Kličko or Jacenjuk.

What the fuck does hockey game have to do with Russification? Should Russia sue Canada over Canadification of Russia through hockey?

It has to do that the Russian president and russian government were to into politizing the Olympics and the Ice hockey tournament had to be the main point of the show. It is quite symbolic that Finns beated Russia, consider that this tournament was to show Russias sport glory

I also for example did not saw George Bush being at the ice hockey tournament in Salt lake City in 2002.

Aside from thinking that all Russophiles are pro-Putin, ignoring centuries of history prior to Stalin, making false claims, and trying to politicize the Olympics by claiming that Selanne thought how much Russification sucked when he scored... aside from those, yeah, you made no errors. That's like saying "aside from failing, X totally succeeded!"

Please, Putin was the one who started to politize the Olympics.

The point is that Ukraine was opressed by Russia for centuries and Russia should let Ukraine to do what it wants.

[European Socialist Republic]

True, but what if they manage to block our decisions?

They won't.

That's awfully optimistic of you. Oh well, another reason for Wilders to complain about the EU, I suppose. Not that people actually care what he says.

[European Socialist Republic]

Ukraine is going to regret joining the EU.

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

People who don't know we have something like the Copenhagen criteria?

[Imperializt Russia]

No.
Almost if not all have been returned to Russia and almost all of those were immediately decommissioned.

You cannot believe everything the government says

It's agreed by three different governments and more international bodies - I even quoted a body of the text from the Federation of American Scientists' Military Analysis Network's article on Ukrainian "Special Weapons".
The fuck more do you want?

Leave conspiracies at the door, ta.

[Risottia]

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

People who don't know we have something like the Copenhagen criteria?

I'd say it's a rather accurate guess.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

People who don't know we have something like the Copenhagen criteria?

I want Cape Verde in the EU, but it's far harder for it to fulfill it than all South American countries but Paraguay and Bolivia. e.e

[Risottia]

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

As I said, the FTA will only worsen the social conditions of the country.

Worse than the current perspective of a governmental default within the year?

They bought their ticket into being the favela of Europe, and now no one will want to accept open borders with a nation full of people desperate to get out.

The funny thing being that they were never promised a ticket into being a part of the EU.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

As I said, the FTA will only worsen the social conditions of the country.

Worse than the current perspective of a governmental default within the year?

They're already poor.

If they get more inequality, I don't see any reason to not label them as third world. :/

[Imperial Nilfgaard]

I really hope the Ukraine gives Russia the bird and joins the EU.

They already did the first half. Next comes the second half, hopefully.

I remember when I thought Ukraine was giving the bird to the EU. God how naive I was to underestimate the resolve of fascists.

[Risottia]

Worse than the current perspective of a governmental default within the year?

They're already poor.

If they get more inequality, I don't see any reason to not label them as third world. :/

I guess that the smartest move for Eastern and Southern Ukraine would be dumping Central and Western Ukraine and make a new country of their own... so to leave the debts to Kiev.

[Occupied Deutschland]

They already did the first half. Next comes the second half, hopefully.

I remember when I thought Ukraine was giving the bird to the EU. God how naive I was to underestimate the resolve of fascists.

You realize a FTA isn't membership in the EU, right?

I swear, the more I see of Eurosceptics, the more I get pushed towards not having a problem with the EU.

[Divair]

I remember when I thought Ukraine was giving the bird to the EU. God how naive I was to underestimate the resolve of fascists.

You realize a FTA isn't membership in the EU, right?

I swear, the more I see of Eurosceptics, the more I get pushed towards not having a problem with the EU.

At this rate you'll be one of us federalists soon enough.

[Risottia]

You realize a FTA isn't membership in the EU, right?

I swear, the more I see of Eurosceptics, the more I get pushed towards not having a problem with the EU.

At this rate you'll be one of us federalists soon enough.

*starts chanting*
one of us
one of us
one of us
one of us

[Divair]

At this rate you'll be one of us federalists soon enough.

*starts chanting*
one of us
one of us
one of us
one of us

[The Kievan People]

So China's going for $11, Germany's going for $11, Ukraine gets it at $9.70, and "The Kievan People" says: the Chinese would never be dumb enough to sign themselves for contracts as rigged as the ones Europeans are currently locked into with Russia

Cool selective quoting from a paywall article there. I can do that to.

Russia says the two sides have agreed on a price formula, but not an actual price.... Gazprom's options won't get any better. Europe, the bedrock of the company's cash flow, looks sluggish, while Russian rivals muscle in on Gazprom's turf. In negotiating a price, global supply is also on China's side. The U.S. shale revolution, and U.S. moves to export gas in the next few years, provide Asia with another supply option. Then there's the more than seven billion cubic feet a day of Australian LNG capacity due to come online by 2017, says Nate Taplin at Gavekal, a research firm.

And since we are now quoting random newspapers analysts, lets hear one from the Chinese side!

The Chinese side is quick to point out it no longer needs the Gazprom gas as much as it did when negotiations began a decade ago. China has now constructed alternate gas pipeline links with central Asia and Myanmar. LNG terminals already import shipped gas and more are in the works, to take gas from Qatar, Australia and even Russia itself.

“Russia is already 10 years too late in entering China’s gas market,” says China-Russia energy expert Feng Yujun of the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations. “Time is on China’s side,” he adds.

Or perhaps.

A new natural gas discovery in southeast Sichuan province - the single biggest ever - could ease domestic shortages in as little as a year and give China a stronger hand in energy negotiations with Russia, according to some experts... "In addition, pricing is always a tough problem for China-Russia natural gas negotiations. The new find may give China a bigger say in the future."

Price remains the last obstacle before the two countries ink a natural gas supply deal after negotiations that have lasted 15 years, said the report.

TL;DR the Chinese are driving a hard bargain and won't just lie back and take it from Russia like the European do. Which I literally would never have guessed!

[Costa Fierro]

Who says we're letting Ukraine (or Western Ukraine) join?

As I said, the FTA will only worsen the social conditions of the country.

They bought their ticket into being the favela of Europe, and now no one will want to accept open borders with a nation full of people desperate to get out.

Free trade =/= free travel.

[Occupied Deutschland]

In somewhat more lighthearted Ukraine-related news, Yanukovych had/has a yacht named 'Bandido'.

Spanish puns in Ukraine, truly the result of our globalized world.

[Degenerate Heart of HetRio]

As I said, the FTA will only worsen the social conditions of the country.

They bought their ticket into being the favela of Europe, and now no one will want to accept open borders with a nation full of people desperate to get out.

Free trade =/= free travel.

I'm talking about why they will be denied accession to the EU, because this FTA was just a bait.