Ukrainian Crisis

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

[*]The "evidence" can be summarized by small scale civilian violence which has gone both ways, supposedly a drive-by shooting, actions taken to downgrade Russian from its' status of official language and McCarthyist skepticism regarding the allegedly "neo-nazi" Ukrainian government.

I understand that color coding makes your post really purty & all, but shooting at pro-Russian protesters is kind of significant:


Of course I wouldn't expect the "fair and balanced" media to pick up on that.


So you don't consider shooting at massive protest rallies as significant violence?

snip

lolwut. So you basically want to justify a 20.000 men-strong military invasion on a a single guy shooting at protesters on 1 or 2 occasions? That's like the US justifying invading Mexico every time one of its citizens gets shot at by a Mexican

No, that's actually not what I said. You presented a bunch of bullshit, like "Yanukovich was legally impeached!" I explained why said bullshit was bullshit. You responded with "lolwut". To each, his own.

Legit.

[Asilian]

yes it is real...

[Regnum Dominae]

yes it is real...

What is?

[Asilian]

yes it is real...

What is?

nothing so, roling with the theme of hypotheticals,

If we were the U.N Security Council, and someone please be the President and thus Luxenborg, how would we debate this issue to intervene or not?

ready....go!

[Regnum Dominae]

What is?

nothing so, roling with the theme of hypotheticals,

If we were the U.N Security Council, and someone please be the President and thus Luxenborg, how would we debate this issue to intervene or not?

ready....go!

If we were the UNSC, any attempts to do something would simply go nowhere, because Russia holds veto power and therefore would veto any resolution that targeted it.

[Elemental North]

nothing so, roling with the theme of hypotheticals,

If we were the U.N Security Council, and someone please be the President and thus Luxenborg, how would we debate this issue to intervene or not?

ready....go!

If we were the UNSC, any attempts to do something would simply go nowhere, because Russia holds veto power and therefore would veto any resolution that targeted it.

is that not a tad bit cynical?...

...yet entirely true...

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Let's debunk the theories supposedly justifying the Russian military invasion of Ukraine one by one:

• "Anti-Russian violence"
  • There is no evidence whatsoever to support claims that Russian nationals or ethnics have been subjected to any significant violence or threats, let alone any directed specifically at them.
  • Furthermore, there is no evidence to support that any such threat or act of violence can be traced to the Ukrainian government or that it has endorsed or condoned such things.
  • The "evidence" can be summarized by small scale civilian violence which has gone both ways, supposedly a drive-by shooting, actions taken to downgrade Russian from its' status of official language and McCarthyist skepticism regarding the allegedly "neo-nazi" Ukrainian government.
  • If anything, pro-Ukrainians have apparently ended up worst than the other side in terms of casualties by most reports, and who exactly started said civilian violence is debatable.
• "A neo-nazi Euromaidan & new Ukrainian government"
  • There is no evidence to support claims that the Ukrainian government is "neo-nazi".
  • Certain elements of the (should we say, former) opposition are not representative of the entire government and people of Ukraine.
  • Evidence has yet to be produced that radical groups enjoy a large popularity among the Ukrainian people and that they run Ukraine's government, as it has been claimed.
  • The Euromaidan in general has expressed disbelief with and sought to distance itself from the political opposition on repeated occasions.
• "Reinstating the rightful president and government"
  • The "rightful president" has been formally and officially deposed by the Ukrainian parliament.
  • The "rightful" president has apparently rewarded himself with $ 37 billion of Ukrainian money.
  • The "rightful" government and president used snipers to shoot at unarmed civilians.

These have yet to be refuted. To this point, the counter-arguments are that one or two alleged shootings at pro-russian protesters (apparently only picked up by RT and a .ru site in russian) justify the 20.000-men-strong military invasion carried out by russia, that the Ukrainian government is "neo-nazi" (according to Wikipedia, Svoboda holds a whopping 36 out of 450 seats in the Rada and 132 out of 3056 in the regions ; and five members of the party hold positions in Ukraine's government [?] ) , that Svoboda and the Right Sector are allegedly to blame for starting the clashes between pro-Kiev and pro-russian civilians , and that every other Ukrainian president was corrupt so the fact that Yanu gifted himself $ 37 bil is no biggie. In a nutshell.

[Arglorand]

Let's debunk the theories supposedly justifying the Russian military invasion of Ukraine one by one:

• "Anti-Russian violence"
  • There is no evidence whatsoever to support claims that Russian nationals or ethnics have been subjected to any significant violence or threats, let alone any directed specifically at them.
  • Furthermore, there is no evidence to support that any such threat or act of violence can be traced to the Ukrainian government or that it has endorsed or condoned such things.
  • The "evidence" can be summarized by small scale civilian violence which has gone both ways, supposedly a drive-by shooting, actions taken to downgrade Russian from its' status of official language and McCarthyist skepticism regarding the allegedly "neo-nazi" Ukrainian government.
  • If anything, pro-Ukrainians have apparently ended up worst than the other side in terms of casualties by most reports, and who exactly started said civilian violence is debatable.
• "A neo-nazi Euromaidan & new Ukrainian government"
  • There is no evidence to support claims that the Ukrainian government is "neo-nazi".
  • Certain elements of the (should we say, former) opposition are not representative of the entire government and people of Ukraine.
  • Evidence has yet to be produced that radical groups enjoy a large popularity among the Ukrainian people and that they run Ukraine's government, as it has been claimed.
  • The Euromaidan in general has expressed disbelief with and sought to distance itself from the political opposition on repeated occasions.
• "Reinstating the rightful president and government"
  • The "rightful president" has been formally and officially deposed by the Ukrainian parliament.
  • The "rightful" president has apparently rewarded himself with $ 37 billion of Ukrainian money.
  • The "rightful" government and president used snipers to shoot at unarmed civilians.

These have yet to be refuted. To this point, the counter-arguments are that one or two alleged shootings at pro-russian protesters (apparently only picked up by RT and a .ru site in russian) justify the 20.000-men-strong military invasion carried out by russia, that the Ukrainian government is "neo-nazi" (according to Wikipedia, Svoboda holds a whopping 36 out of 450 seats in the Rada and 132 out of 3056 in the regions ; and five members of the party hold positions in Ukraine's government [?] ) , that Svoboda and the Right Sector are allegedly to blame for starting the clashes between pro-Kiev and pro-russian civilians , and that every other Ukrainian president was corrupt so the fact that Yanu gifted himself $ 37 bil is no biggie. In a nutshell.

You forgot to mention that there are two ethnic Russians, one ethnic Jew, and one ethnic Moldovan in the Ukrainian government, rendering any claims of nazism simply absurd. Furthermore, representatives of Ukraine's Jewish, Russian and other minority communities have openly spoken out against the intervention.

[Arglorand]

Also, these are pro-Russian protesters. Sighted in a pro-Russian rally in Kharkiv. Who could've thought.

[Free Tristania]

Also, these are pro-Russian protesters. Sighted in a pro-Russian rally in Kharkiv. Who could've thought.

Well.. Russia has an awful lot in common with the Third Reich so I am not surprised.

[Agritum]

Also, these are pro-Russian protesters. Sighted in a pro-Russian rally in Kharkiv. Who could've thought.

Well.. Russia has an awful lot in common with the Third Reich so I am not surprised.

...why must you Godwin?

I mean, I'm not exactly a Putin fan, but I believe that Vlad didn't start ethnically cleansing millions of people yet.

[Arglorand]

Well.. Russia has an awful lot in common with the Third Reich so I am not surprised.

...why must you Godwin?

I mean, I'm not exactly a Putin fan, but I believe that Vlad didn't start ethnically cleansing millions of people yet.

I wouldn't say an /awful/ lot in common either, but the justification for invasion was quite the same as Sudetenland and Poland.

[Free Tristania]

Well.. Russia has an awful lot in common with the Third Reich so I am not surprised.

...why must you Godwin?

I mean, I'm not exactly a Putin fan, but I believe that Vlad didn't start ethnically cleansing millions of people yet.

* Attacks on non-Russians - CHECK
* Attacks on homosexuals - CHECK
* Massive rearmament - CHECK
* One party state dictatorship - CHECK
* Military aggression against neighbours - CHECK

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Related:

Kim Jong Un vs Putin

Obama: "but.. but.. HEALTHCARE!"

Vlad vs Kim gogogogogo

[Asigna]

* Attacks on non-Russians - CHECK
* Attacks on homosexuals - CHECK
* Massive rearmament - CHECK
* One party state dictatorship - CHECK
* Military aggression against neighbours - CHECK

I gotta praise Putin for not taking everything in a lethal manner though. "Harmless authoritarianism" i can call it.

[Free Tristania]

* Attacks on non-Russians - CHECK
* Attacks on homosexuals - CHECK
* Massive rearmament - CHECK
* One party state dictatorship - CHECK
* Military aggression against neighbours - CHECK

I gotta praise Putin for not taking everything in a lethal manner though. "Harmless authoritarianism" i can call it.

Those attacks can be lethal enough and those neo-nazi groups that attack people are supported by the Russian police.

[Al-Orthodoxia]

UNSC proved itself worthless again

[Baltenstein]

UNSC proved itself worthless again

With five permanent Veto powers, what do you expect?

[Asigna]

Those attacks can be lethal enough and those neo-nazi groups that attack people are supported by the Russian police.

Perhaps it is best the CIA should work on Russia now. The FBI should investigate more on Putin's political motives in the domestic scope and in the international scope.

[Al-Orthodoxia]

UNSC proved itself worthless again

With five permanent Veto powers, what do you expect?

Not much, actually, they should just disband it all.

[Free Tristania]

Those attacks can be lethal enough and those neo-nazi groups that attack people are supported by the Russian police.

Perhaps it is best the CIA should work on Russia now. The FBI should investigate more on Putin's political motives in the domestic scope and in the international scope.

I think that it could be a good first start to ban RussiaToday here in Europe (and the US) and to block the website. Then those spreading conspiracy theories mirroring Russian propaganda should be investigation: who funds them and why ?

[Asigna]

Not much, actually, they should just disband it all.

Freaking united nations SC permanent seats should be only handled only to the side of the rational. There is a visible rift between the east and the west so the rule of the world should only belong to only one.

[Free Tristania]

Not much, actually, they should just disband it all.

Freaking united nations SC permanent seats should be only handled only to the side of the rational. There is a visible rift between the east and the west so the rule of the world should only belong to only one.

Exactly: to the West.

[Arglorand]

Perhaps it is best the CIA should work on Russia now. The FBI should investigate more on Putin's political motives in the domestic scope and in the international scope.

I think that it could be a good first start to ban RussiaToday here in Europe (and the US) and to block the website. Then those spreading conspiracy theories mirroring Russian propaganda should be investigation: who funds them and why ?

Tbh, it's kinda hilarious to watch just to count how many times they say the words "fascist", "neo-Nazi" or "Bandera" per minute.

[Baltenstein]

Not much, actually, they should just disband it all.

Freaking united nations SC permanent seats should be only handled only to the side of the rational. There is a visible rift between the east and the west so the rule of the world should only belong to only one.

It's exactly this kind of thinking that led into the US' Iraq desaster and the subsequent strengthening of the non-western regional and great powers (Russia, PRC, Iran).