Ukrainian Crisis

[Arglorand]

There may be to you, sensible as you are, but to the scared shitless Ukranian Prime Minister and the frusturated Secretary of State, there is not...A Russian Military toe on their soil at this point might as well signal WWIII

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

They won't overreact. Their policy has for now been to calmly deal with every provocation by politely asking the Russian army to gtfo, which has so far worked. As long as shots are not fired, everything's relatively fine.

[Asilian]

There may be to you, sensible as you are, but to the scared shitless Ukranian Prime Minister and the frusturated Secretary of State, there is not...A Russian Military toe on their soil at this point might as well signal WWIII

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

This is true, it does not equal invasion, but unfortanetly the tension there are so to the point, that it plays on people's minds as Putin testing the waters, like the kid seeing how far he can stick his hand in the cookie jar before someone notices...

[Estruia]

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

They won't overreact. Their policy has for now been to calmly deal with every provocation by politely asking the Russian army to gtfo, which has so far worked. As long as shots are not fired, everything's relatively fine.

I do not expect them to overreact, I was just answering Asilian's hypothetical.

[Asilian]

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

They won't overreact. Their policy has for now been to calmly deal with every provocation by politely asking the Russian army to gtfo, which has so far worked. As long as shots are not fired, everything's relatively fine.

you have no idea how diplomacy, statesmanship, or foreign policy works do you?

[Arglorand]

They won't overreact. Their policy has for now been to calmly deal with every provocation by politely asking the Russian army to gtfo, which has so far worked. As long as shots are not fired, everything's relatively fine.

I do not expect them to overreact, I was just answering Asilian's hypothetical.

I know. I'm endorsing your answer to that hypothetical by building upon it.

[Shofercia]

That's incorrect. The last line clearly states that it requires a passport with proof of Crimean Residency. Re-read it.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/16/world/eur ... ?hpt=hp_c2

A whopping 80% of voters turning out at a polling station in Bakhchysaray were not on the electoral roll, the registrar told CNN.

Those not on the roll have their passport and papers checked to establish identity. On the spot, election staff decide, with a show of hands, whether to allow those voters to participate.

That's how on the spot voter registration can work. They must still present their passports with proof of Crimean Residency. As long as they live in the Crimea permanently, they are extremely likely to be allowed to vote.

[Arglorand]

They won't overreact. Their policy has for now been to calmly deal with every provocation by politely asking the Russian army to gtfo, which has so far worked. As long as shots are not fired, everything's relatively fine.

you have no idea how diplomacy, statesmanship, or foreign policy works do you?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

No, that's not a question.

[Myrensis]

There may be to you, sensible as you are, but to the scared shitless Ukranian Prime Minister and the frusturated Secretary of State, there is not...A Russian Military toe on their soil at this point might as well signal WWIII

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

Setting aside for the moment the fact that they've effectively invaded via their actions in Crimea, Russian soldiers are on Ukrainian soil occupying Ukrainian infrastructure. Ukraine would be perfectly justified in opening fire. Or, how many Russian troops can push how far into Ukrainian territory before the Ukrainians are no longer to blame for whatever happens?

[Estruia]

I do not expect them to overreact, I was just answering Asilian's hypothetical.

I know. I'm endorsing your answer to that hypothetical by building upon it.

Ahhhhh. I see, my mistake! I misunderstood your post's intent.

[Arglorand]

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

Setting aside for the moment the fact that they've effectively invaded via their actions in Crimea, Russian soldiers are on Ukrainian soil occupying Ukrainian infrastructure. Ukraine would be perfectly justified in opening fire. Or, how many Russian troops can push how far into Ukrainian territory before the Ukrainians are no longer to blame for whatever happens?

It was absolutely, 120% Russia's fault the moment her troops stepped into Crimea disguised as "self-defense forces who bought their uniforms in shops". Unfortunately, Russia doesn't believe it was her fault.

[Asilian]

you have no idea how diplomacy, statesmanship, or foreign policy works do you?

You have no idea what you're talking about.

No, that's not a question.

You really think everything's fine? Oh you annexed our territory, you've encroached on our boarders, my governments collapsing, my economy is shit, my people are in anarchy, the U.N is at my throat, America is threatening illiegal intervention, peace talks are getting no where, but were fine don't worry...

-Ukranian Prime Minister

I doubt the shit out of that...

[Arglorand]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

No, that's not a question.

You really think everything's fine? Oh you annexed our territory, you've encroached on our boarders, my governments collapsing, my economy is shit, my people are in anarchy, the U.N is at my throat, America is threatening illiegal intervention, peace talks are getting no where, but were fine don't worry...

-Ukranian Prime Minister

I doubt the shit out of that...

that's not a quote and you entirely misunderstood what I was saying.

So GTFO out of my face, you little coagulated piece of arrogance.

[Estruia]

As much as it pains me to say this, if what you say is true, and the Ukrainian Government DOES react as if they are being invaded, what comes after is on the hands of those in Kiev. Border skirmishes =/= invasion.

Setting aside for the moment the fact that they've effectively invaded via their actions in Crimea, Russian soldiers are on Ukrainian soil occupying Ukrainian infrastructure. Ukraine would be perfectly justified in opening fire. Or, how many Russian troops can push how far into Ukrainian territory before the Ukrainians are no longer to blame for whatever happens?

Ukraine would be justified, yes. However, they would be igniting a war they cannot hope to win alone. The West would not come to Ukraine's aid if they were the ones who forced the escalation. How do you think that would look the next time Western officials met with the Chinese for trade talks?

[Costa Fierro]

Unfortunately, Russia doesn't believe it was her fault.

The Russian government doesn't believe it's their fault. Russians are actually taking to the streets and protesting against the government's involvement. And kudos to them.

[Asilian]

You really think everything's fine? Oh you annexed our territory, you've encroached on our boarders, my governments collapsing, my economy is shit, my people are in anarchy, the U.N is at my throat, America is threatening illiegal intervention, peace talks are getting no where, but were fine don't worry...

-Ukranian Prime Minister

I doubt the shit out of that...

that's not a quote and you entirely misunderstood what I was saying.
So GTFO out of my face, you little coagulated piece of arrogance.

did i strike a nerve? i believe i have! oh my, now you know how the Ukranian Prime Minister feels, and how the U.S Secretary of State does feel, hell I don't truly care, what happens there is none of our business-or anyone elses, let them deal with it. Why is the U.S even spending time on this ice cube from hell anyway?

[Asigna]

Why is the U.S even spending time on this ice cube from hell anyway?

I'm pretty sure the US has been dealing with more pressing matters.

[Gravlen]

the ballots don't have a no box
there's only a yes box
not marking the ballot might be interpreted as no

glorious Churov!

If they really wanted to piss off Putin/Russia, the Tatars would tear up their ballots right as they are handed to them.

Considering that armed "self-defence" units are at the polling places, it could also be a painful move.

[Asilian]

Why is the U.S even spending time on this ice cube from hell anyway?

I'm pretty sure the US has been dealing with more pressing matters.

No, we haven't. We say that the Ukraine, and specifically Crimea is in an "extremely integral and strategic place to the U.S" I don't see how...

[Shofercia]

Unfortunately, Russia doesn't believe it was her fault.

The Russian government doesn't believe it's their fault. Russians are actually taking to the streets and protesting against the government's involvement. And kudos to them.

And for the government involvement too. This is popular in Russia: http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomani ... to-crimea/

The reason is that Russians view Yatsenuyk's rise as another Western attempt to meddle, and because we had to deal with Saakashvili/Yushenko fallouts... Also: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commenta ... z2w7RHqrZV

It's become popular to dismiss Russian President Vladimir Putin as paranoid and out of touch with reality. But his denunciation of "neofascist extremists" within the movement that toppled the old Ukrainian government, and in the ranks of the new one, is worth heeding. The empowerment of extreme Ukrainian nationalists is no less a menace to the country's future than Putin's maneuvers in Crimea. These are odious people with a repugnant ideology.

Take the Svoboda party, which gained five key positions in the new Ukrainian government, including deputy prime minister, minister of defense and prosecutor general. Svoboda's call to abolish the autonomy that protects Crimea's Russian heritage, and its push for a parliamentary vote that downgraded the status of the Russian language, are flagrantly provocative to Ukraine's millions of ethnic Russians and incredibly stupid as the first steps of a new government in a divided country.

These moves, more than Russian propaganda, prompted broad Crimean unease. Recall that this crisis began when Ukraine's then-President Viktor Yanukovich retreated on a deal toward European integration. Are the Europe-aspiring Ukrainians who now vote to restrict Russians' cultural-language rights even dimly aware that, as part of the European Union, such minority rights would have to be expanded, not curtailed?

[Costa Fierro]

I'm pretty sure the US has been dealing with more pressing matters.

No, we haven't. We say that the Ukraine, and specifically Crimea is in an "extremely integral and strategic place to the U.S" I don't see how...

Well let's think. Russia decides to go full retard and invade the Ukraine for no apparent reason like Bush did with I-Rack. Ukraine declares war and attempts to resist. Russia gets to Kiev. Poland shits itself and intervenes to save the incumbent Ukrainian government, thus invoking several NATO clauses and bringing the US into direct and possible open conflict with Russia.

You can see where we're going with this, right?

[Asigna]

Well let's think. Russia decides to go full retard and invade the Ukraine for no apparent reason like Bush did with I-Rack. Ukraine declares war and attempts to resist. Russia gets to Kiev. Poland shits itself and intervenes to save the incumbent Ukrainian government, thus invoking several NATO clauses and bringing the US into direct and possible open conflict with Russia.

I agree with the inverse of your statement. We can all see that this is will and will never become an open conflict. Just subtle then later open occupation of the whole mainland Ukraine should be expected. At least the referendum in itself is a feat.

[Arglorand]

that's not a quote and you entirely misunderstood what I was saying.
So GTFO out of my face, you little coagulated piece of arrogance.

did i strike a nerve? i believe i have! oh my, now you know how the Ukranian Prime Minister feels, and how the U.S Secretary of State does feel, hell I don't truly care, what happens there is none of our business-or anyone elses, let them deal with it. Why is the U.S even spending time on this ice cube from hell anyway?

Whatever, man. Whatever.

[Asilian]

No, we haven't. We say that the Ukraine, and specifically Crimea is in an "extremely integral and strategic place to the U.S" I don't see how...

Well let's think. Russia decides to go full retard and invade the Ukraine for no apparent reason like Bush did with I-Rack. Ukraine declares war and attempts to resist. Russia gets to Kiev. Poland shits itself and intervenes to save the incumbent Ukrainian government, thus invoking several NATO clauses and bringing the US into direct and possible open conflict with Russia.

You can see where we're going with this, right?

Yes, and to tell you the truth I DONT CARE!!!! See it is my wholesome view as an American that, since we have played nanny to the world since we appointed ourselves to that position in 1947 that we get to retire one day, and let the kids play hide and seek in the ravine behind the house, guess what kids! todays the day nanny retires!

[Free Tristania]

No, we haven't. We say that the Ukraine, and specifically Crimea is in an "extremely integral and strategic place to the U.S" I don't see how...

Well let's think. Russia decides to go full retard and invade the Ukraine for no apparent reason like Bush did with I-Rack. Ukraine declares war and attempts to resist. Russia gets to Kiev. Poland shits itself and intervenes to save the incumbent Ukrainian government, thus invoking several NATO clauses and bringing the US into direct and possible open conflict with Russia.

You can see where we're going with this, right?

Article 5. When someone invokes this clause the ball will roll.

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/off ... _17120.htm

[Arglorand]

Well let's think. Russia decides to go full retard and invade the Ukraine for no apparent reason like Bush did with I-Rack. Ukraine declares war and attempts to resist. Russia gets to Kiev. Poland shits itself and intervenes to save the incumbent Ukrainian government, thus invoking several NATO clauses and bringing the US into direct and possible open conflict with Russia.

You can see where we're going with this, right?

Yes, and to tell you the truth I DONT CARE!!!! See it is my wholesome view as an American that, since we have played nanny to the world since we appointed ourselves to that position in 1947 that we get to retire one day, and let the kids play hide and seek in the ravine behind the house, guess what kids! todays the day nanny retires!

I dearly hope to see the day when America somehow turns defenseless and is invaded by Mexico to defend the Mexican Spanish-speaking population.

I wonder if you won't care then.