Ukrainian Crisis

[Geilinor]

If there was some kind of conspiracy, his site would be shut down and he'd be black-bagged into Guantanamo. The fact that that hasn't happened indicate either that said conspiracy is too incompetent to be a threat- or, otherwise, that there isn't one.

And please, feel free to answer my question at any time.

There slow to react, as the years go by more and more people are waking up to the fact to the dangers of radical leftist groups who want a globalized new world order. Its in the open and I wish more people would realize the fact like those rioters in Ukraine for example.

You lost all your legitimacy.

[Nuverikstan]

Why not we just split the Ukraine! It worked very well in Sudan and Korea!

[The New Lowlands]

If there was some kind of conspiracy, his site would be shut down and he'd be black-bagged into Guantanamo. The fact that that hasn't happened indicate either that said conspiracy is too incompetent to be a threat- or, otherwise, that there isn't one.

And please, feel free to answer my question at any time.

There slow to react, as the years go by more and more people are waking up to the fact to the dangers of radical leftist groups who want a globalized new world order. Its in the open and I wish more people would realize the fact like those rioters in Ukraine for example.

Do you know how long it would take to plan and execute one of those black-bag operations?

A week, tops.

And, again, have you ever lived outside a democratic country?

[Neoconstantius]

Why not we just split the Ukraine! It worked very well in Sudan and Korea!

Sure, let's split up every country with a geographically based political dispute. We can start with the US, right?

[NorthEast Alliance]

There slow to react, as the years go by more and more people are waking up to the fact to the dangers of radical leftist groups who want a globalized new world order. Its in the open and I wish more people would realize the fact like those rioters in Ukraine for example.

You lost all your legitimacy.

Such is the arrogance of the mainstream supporters of the vast plot, the sad thing is your all for the most part supporting it without you even knowing. When the novel "1984" becomes a reality you will wish the rise of nationalism saved you. Ukraine will understand if they join the EU.

[NorthEast Alliance]

There slow to react, as the years go by more and more people are waking up to the fact to the dangers of radical leftist groups who want a globalized new world order. Its in the open and I wish more people would realize the fact like those rioters in Ukraine for example.

Do you know how long it would take to plan and execute one of those black-bag operations?

A week, tops.

And, again, have you ever lived outside a democratic country?

I do not live in a democratic country, Canada is controlled by a coalition of Trudeau liberal and foreign Islamic jihadists. Our Conservative government for the most part is trying to fight back but its in vain unless a strong far fight force comes into play. Ukraine has to realize that to.

[The New Lowlands]

Do you know how long it would take to plan and execute one of those black-bag operations?

A week, tops.

And, again, have you ever lived outside a democratic country?

I do not live in a democratic country, Canada is controlled by a coalition of Trudeau liberal and foreign Islamic jihadists. Our Conservative government for the most part is trying to fight back but its in vain unless a strong far fight force comes into play. Ukraine has to realize that to.

So, in other words, you've never lived outside a democratic country and have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

I had my assumption before, but now I'm certain. Thank you.

[Nuverikstan]

Do you know how long it would take to plan and execute one of those black-bag operations?

A week, tops.

And, again, have you ever lived outside a democratic country?

I do not live in a democratic country, Canada is controlled by a coalition of Trudeau liberal and foreign Islamic jihadists. Our Conservative government for the most part is trying to fight back but its in vain unless a strong far fight force comes into play. Ukraine has to realize that to.

I don't see what the Muslim Caliphate needs maple syrup for. Just kidding, but I don't remember Canada being control by any Muslims.

[Volnotova]

I don't see what the Muslim Caliphate needs maple syrup for.

Incendiary bombs. *nods*

Don't you see? It's all part of the conspiracy...

[NorthEast Alliance]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4dQjdakftw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiwaKWeS0MU

Watch both of these they are very insightful.

[Volnotova]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

[Neoconstantius]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

Ridiculous demands of an equally ridiculous government. *sigh*

[Nuverikstan]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

That is why we should split Ukraine in half!

[Marsisian]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

That is why we should split Ukraine in half!

You're saying we should split every country in half just because they're different? Then we should separate Alaska from the US and give it to Canada!

[The Great Warrior Rivers]

That is why we should split Ukraine in half!

You're saying we should split every country in half just because they're different? Then we should separate Alaska from the US and give it to Canada!

Ukraine should be it's own continent. *nods*

[72o]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

The demands are reasonable and the bare minimum. lol@"not democratic decision making". The current regime has tried to undermine democracy in every way possible. Jailing political opposition, censoring the media and now the 'anti-protest' laws. It is not 'mob rule', it's self-defense.

[Shofercia]

Considering Germany's history with Ukraine... it's really not hard to find problems in European history for anyone worth their salt as a historian, and the "hurr durr Russia bad" crap is getting old. Russia offered the government a better deal than the EU, the government took it. Sometimes the simplest explanations are the best. But hey, maybe Russia should take a page out of your playbook, next time EU and China provide Russia with competing offers, eh? Fuck the EU's offer, because after all, considering Germany's history with Russia... France's history with Russia... UK's history with Russia... shall I keep going?

If i remember correctly the ukrainians were willing to work with the nazis in order to defeat the russians untill the nazis started killing the ukrainians ,the russians oppressed the ukrianians during the sovyet era and before that .this isnt BIG BAD RUSSIA this is one nation having a bad history with russia.

Ukrainians have been a part of the Russian Empire for centuries. Yet most of the "hurr durring" is cited from the Stalinist period, which lasted a few decades. If they want to judge USSR/Russia by the most atrocious leader, why not apply the same criteria to the EU nations? I'm just being consistent, something that the violent protesters aren't. A lot of Russians, such as yours truly, don't like Stalin either. Saying that Stalin is better than a Nazi who wanted to destroy 90 percent of my ethnicity isn't a shining endorsement.

The EU is a radical leftist organization with neo-liberal globalized influences.

Radical leftist AND neo-liberal? Am I the only one who sees the contradiction?

Nope. But compared to the absolutely ludicrous posts in favor of "hurr durr we want to impose austerity on our population via mob rule and it's like totally reasonable" type of posts, that one didn't seem to warrant a response, since compared to the post I'm making fun of, that claim is actually sane.

1) I do not support free trade I am a Fascist. 2) Russia is more fiscally sound than the EU anyway.

1) You understand that Russia is acting more left-wing than the EU on this issue, right?
I mean, that's not necessarily a bad thing- but you do get that, right?
2) Source?

Compare Russia's GDP growth for the past decade with EU's.

Any sources on the Sovietization of the EU? (Which aren't bullshit?)

Its leadership, mainly Barroso who is a communist. Nigel Farage revealed Barroso to be a communist back in his early days of politics. The EU just screams communism to me. I support the middle class, the families, the workers just everyday people. The EU policy is against all of that.

Dude, stop. The EU is going around imposing austerity. That's not Communism. That's not Socialism. The crap PR name is Neoliberal Socialism, or some such bullshit, but austerity is a theory reviled by every economist who's to the left of Keynes, as well as Keynes himself.

Because history matters so much when it comes to relationships between two nations.

Like France and Germany; oh wait.

70+ years is a lot different from the breakup of the USSR, which only happened 23 years ago. Even someone born in the last days of Stalin's rule are only 60 years old as of today.

Most of the atrocious violations by Stalin, ended during WWII. So that's 1945. It's 2014. That's been what, almost 70 years? Khrushchev provided housing and gave Crimea to Ukraine, Donbass too. Brezhnev wasn't superbly oppressive within the USSR either.

Also Ukraine is better off without Brussels making unfair demands on it's internal affairs.

I'm saddened to see the only reference of Brussels be in a negative connotation.

Granted, it's quite a miserable city in many places, but a few redeemable locales make it a quaint place for tourism.

As for your issue, I believe that if Ukraine rejects the European Union, their leaders should be equally weary of our good friend Volodya.

They were weary, prior to the protests. They came to the EU and asked EU to match Russia's offer. EU failed. Only after that did Ukraine side with Russia.

[Shofercia]

They're not terrorists, they're protestors.

Rioters would be a better descriptor, honestly...

This ^

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

Never thought I'd say this to you, but thank you for getting us the fuck back on topic.

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

Ridiculous demands of an equally ridiculous government. *sigh*

Timoshenko makes financially prudent decision... jailed.
Yanukovich makes financially prudent decision... gets hit with riots.
Meanwhile the rioters, supporters of Yushenko, he who helped jail Timoshenko, and the ones currently rioting against Yanukovich are wondering why few Ukrainians are being financially prudent... must be Putin's fault!

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

The demands are reasonable and the bare minimum. lol@"not democratic decision making". The current regime has tried to undermine democracy in every way possible. Jailing political opposition, censoring the media and now the 'anti-protest' laws. It is not 'mob rule', it's self-defense.

Pretty sure that when you force the government to resign due to massive mob presence, that's known as mob rule, no matter how badly you try to spin it.

[Jamjai]

Why not we just split the Ukraine! It worked very well in Sudan and Korea!

That will never work

[Meowfoundland]

On a related note...

I have compiled the list of demands put forth by the opposition so far:

Resignation of the government
Resignation of the president
Immediate/snap elections
Signing of the EU free trade deal
Revoking of the anti-protest laws

I think the opposition is being unreasonable here. This isn't democratic decission making. This is (attempted) mob rule: "Obey or we will plunge your country into civil war!"

EDIT: To add to that. It's one thing to demand the president to resign, another to demand the resignition of his entire government, the revoking of the anti-protest laws, immediate elections and the resuming of talks regarding the EU free trade deal.

They have forced the government and the president into a position where conceding would mean political suicide (As it would lead to a crack down on the corruption of him and his cronies) leaving fighting the protesters as the only means to survive this standoff.

The demands are reasonable and the bare minimum. lol@"not democratic decision making". The current regime has tried to undermine democracy in every way possible. Jailing political opposition, censoring the media and now the 'anti-protest' laws. It is not 'mob rule', it's self-defense.

I have to laugh at calling immediate elections and the revocation of anti-protest laws undemocratic. The resuming of EU trade talks, maybe. That would rely on what the outcome of the election. But not new elections in a crisis as major as this.

[Ostroeuropa]

All of the demands are entirely reasonable except the EU one.
Don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine in the EU.
But it should be by ballot, not revolt.

Have the election and promise to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Win, then implement.

[Nuverikstan]

Why not we just split the Ukraine! It worked very well in Sudan and Korea!

That will never work

Yes we got one! Anyone else wanna split Ukraine? Then we can give Alaska to Canada and Texas become a country.

[Shofercia]

The demands are reasonable and the bare minimum. lol@"not democratic decision making". The current regime has tried to undermine democracy in every way possible. Jailing political opposition, censoring the media and now the 'anti-protest' laws. It is not 'mob rule', it's self-defense.

I have to laugh at calling immediate elections and the revocation of anti-protest laws undemocratic. The resuming of EU trade talks, maybe. That would rely on what the outcome of the election. But not new elections in a crisis as major as this.

You don't get to riot and demand elections because a government adopted a policy that you don't like. That's mob rule, pure and simple. Can you imagine the sheer chaos that would result if every time someone didn't like policy X, and they could riot, they'd call for snap elections? "Yo, we're Tea Partiers, we don't like Obamacare, new elections, nao!" Because in those instances, the governments might simply adhere to mob rule, as politicians will do quite a bit to stay in power. And what about the very poor who have to work to make ends meet, and simply do not have time to be "politically active" in a riot? They'd simply be forgotten. The precedent that the rioters are asking for is either not going to work, or it'll lead to mob rule, and economic devastation for Ukraine.

All of the demands are entirely reasonable except the EU one.
Don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine in the EU.
But it should be by ballot, not revolt.

Have the election and promise to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Win, then implement.

Please see above for an explanation of why they're not reasonable.

[Ostroeuropa]

I have to laugh at calling immediate elections and the revocation of anti-protest laws undemocratic. The resuming of EU trade talks, maybe. That would rely on what the outcome of the election. But not new elections in a crisis as major as this.

You don't get to riot and demand elections because a government adopted a policy that you don't like. That's mob rule, pure and simple. Can you imagine the sheer chaos that would result if every time someone didn't like policy X, and they could riot, they'd call for snap elections? "Yo, we're Tea Partiers, we don't like Obamacare, new elections, nao!" Because in those instances, the governments might simply adhere to mob rule, as politicians will do quite a bit to stay in power. And what about the very poor who have to work to make ends meet, and simply do not have time to be "politically active" in a riot? They'd simply be forgotten. The precedent that the rioters are asking for is either not going to work, or it'll lead to mob rule, and economic devastation for Ukraine.

All of the demands are entirely reasonable except the EU one.
Don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine in the EU.
But it should be by ballot, not revolt.

Have the election and promise to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Win, then implement.

Please see above for an explanation of why they're not reasonable.

The governments primary responsibility is to ensure law and order.
They have lost control of several cities.
In any normal democracy this would have led to a mass resignation and snap elections even BEFORE the demands were made.
The fact that the ruling parties senators or whatever havn't voted and passed a vote of no confidence is rather telling of the political culture of ukraine.

[Volnotova]

All of the demands are entirely reasonable except the EU one.
Don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine in the EU.
But it should be by ballot, not revolt.

Have the election and promise to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Win, then implement.

Well, I am not arguing that individually they could be reasonable demands.

But this isn't how politics works (or at least, not in the west): You cannot just demand unconditional surrender and threaten civil war if you don't get your way.

This is exactly what the opposition is doing atm (partially because they are too spineless too stand up to that mob).

Never thought I'd say this to you, but thank you for getting us the fuck back on topic.

You're welcome.

I have to laugh at calling immediate elections and the revocation of anti-protest laws undemocratic. The resuming of EU trade talks, maybe. That would rely on what the outcome of the election. But not new elections in a crisis as major as this.

You don't get to riot and demand elections because a government adopted a policy that you don't like. That's mob rule, pure and simple. Can you imagine the sheer chaos that would result if every time someone didn't like policy X, and they could riot, they'd call for snap elections? "Yo, we're Tea Partiers, we don't like Obamacare, new elections, nao!" Because in those instances, the governments might simply adhere to mob rule, as politicians will do quite a bit to stay in power. And what about the very poor who have to work to make ends meet, and simply do not have time to be "politically active" in a riot? They'd simply be forgotten. The precedent that the rioters are asking for is either not going to work, or it'll lead to mob rule, and economic devastation for Ukraine.

All of the demands are entirely reasonable except the EU one.
Don't get me wrong, I want Ukraine in the EU.
But it should be by ballot, not revolt.

Have the election and promise to bring Ukraine into the EU.
Win, then implement.

Please see above for an explanation of why they're not reasonable.

This.

I don't get how people in the west think the opposition is being reasonable by threatening violence if they don't (completely) get their way.

It's the exact definition of terrorism.