School Cancels Christmas Charity

[The Emerald Dawn]

That's great, champ.

The US Constitution, and rulings of the Supreme Court, disagree.

Thank you for playing, we have some lovely consolation prizes.

*Takes prizes*

Anyway, are you saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme Court rulings say that you can't give to charities with religious affiliation?

No, we're saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme court rulings say that PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS can't ORGANIZE AND SUPPORT charities with religious affiliations.

Again, global literacy rates are worrying me.

[Blasveck]

Talk to me when you make quit making strawman's, and get a dictionary and learn what the word SECULARISM means, then maybe Ill listen. Because you clearly don't know, what the fuck you are talking about. The only thing you seem to be capable of doing, is throwing around the word ''bigot'' to anyone who disagrees with you.

Secularism = a state where the government is not run by religious authority. I know exactly what it means, and exactly how it has been bastardized. Secularism IS NOT a system in which the government bans all practice of religion outside of private institutions. Banning religion from any location is a disgusting violation of human rights and freedom of religion.

When was religion banned from schools?

You can freely be a Christian at school.

The school just can't enforce it or sponser it or recognize it.

[Benuty]

No, it doesn't not at all.

The Constitution protects freedom of religious expression. It simply doesn't protect the freedom to force your religion on others.

How is a public school helping (actively) a religious charity,that helps needy children, forcing your religion on others.

You just answered your own question.
*Fixed.

[The Emerald Dawn]

That's a lie. The goal of the organization in charge of the charity event has the express goal of converting children.

Yes. That's the organization's goal. It is not, however, the school's goal, based on the interview with the principal of the school. The school is only in it for 'helping people', and they probably don't care one bit about the Christian part.

Also, I think it's noteworthy that this is being challenged by the American Humanist Association, whose own goal is to advance their beliefs (and let's be honest for a second: Who isn't going to try to do that?). They're threatening legal action because they want to kick out the slightest religious influence and make sure they are the primary influence there, and are accomplishing this by stressing 'separation of church and state' in a way it was not originally intended.

Funny thing, laws.

They cut both ways.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Oh. I thought you were referring to something in the source/article. My mistake.

Still, how exactly is relatively subtle religious literature akin to forcing people to attend public prayer? The latter directly forces people to participate in religious activity; the former might promote religious activities but doesn't force people to participate in them.

That's irrelevant.

It's also illegal to have school sponsored Bible readings or prayers, even if you don't force students to attend them.

So, you are saying that the very act of having religious activities in a school or subtly promoting them is illegal/should be illegal?

[Mavorpen]

Yes. That's the organization's goal. It is not, however, the school's goal, based on the interview with the principal of the school. The school is only in it for 'helping people', and they probably don't care one bit about the Christian part.

Which is completely irrelevant to the fact that the school would be favoring and endorsing Christianity due this directly helping an evangelical organization spread their belief.

[Blahbania]

How is a public school helping (actively) a religious charity,that helps needy children, forcing your religion on others.

You just answered your own question.
*Fixed.

Let me guess. The answer is it doesn't force your religion on others.

[Mavorpen]

That's irrelevant.

It's also illegal to have school sponsored Bible readings or prayers, even if you don't force students to attend them.

So, you are saying that the very act of having religious activities in a school or subtly promoting them is illegal/should be illegal?

HAVING them? No. Religious clubs in public schools aren't illegal. Promoting them? Yes.

[Luepola]

Yes. That's the organization's goal. It is not, however, the school's goal, based on the interview with the principal of the school. The school is only in it for 'helping people', and they probably don't care one bit about the Christian part.

Also, I think it's noteworthy that this is being challenged by the American Humanist Association, whose own goal is to advance their beliefs (and let's be honest for a second: Who isn't going to try to do that?). They're threatening legal action because they want to kick out the slightest religious influence and make sure they are the primary influence there, and are accomplishing this by stressing 'separation of church and state' in a way it was not originally intended.

Funny thing, laws.

They cut both ways.

I can agree with that.

[Anollasia]

What a bunch of jerks. Charity helps people and then they just cancel it?

[The Emerald Dawn]

What a bunch of jerks. Charity helps people and then they just cancel it?

So...I usually use the three page rule, but I'm severely fucking bored tonight. Obviously, I'm not going to just buy the whole "Haha, fuck you, church" motivation presented, so I thought I'd look into what AHA objects to specifically. Here, from the actual letter sent:

As you should know, Samaritan’s Purse is a self-proclaimed “evangelical Christian organization providing spiritual and physical aid to hurting people around the world. . .with the purpose of sharing God’s love through His Son, Jesus Christ.” Its mission is “to follow the example of Christ by helping those in need and proclaiming the hope of the Gospel” and motto is “HELPING IN JESUS’ NAME.”

This, of course, is on the front page of the organizations website:

Since 1993, more than 100 million boys and girls in over 130 countries have experienced God’s love through the power of simple shoebox gifts from Operation Christmas Child. Samaritan’s Purse works with local churches and ministry partners to deliver the gifts and share the life-changing Good News of Jesus Christ.

"Helping in Jesus' Name" is across the top just under the title.

The letter continues-

The evangelical booklet delivered with the toys includes a conversion pledge for the child
to sign. As its founder has admitted, Operation Christmas Child “is about introducing children and their families to God’s greatest gift-His Son, Jesus Christ” and that “evangelism is the focus”of the program. He has boasted that the program has converted “tens of thousands of children and their families,”citing an example where “one shoebox prepared the way for nearly two dozen people to come to faith in Jesus Christ.” The shoebox giftsare used to “ support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in the communities.”

Here is a report about the booklet in the shoe boxes.
Apparently, this was raised as a concern originally in the UK-

Yet many of the scheme's supporters, who include thousands of schools, are unaware that the organisation behind it is a US-based, evangelical and missionary Christian charity led by a controversial fundamentalist. Parents and teachers are not told that the boxes are in many cases sent overseas with religious literature.

It's important to note that this goal is stated on their website:

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.

So, it's not a conspiracy theory that this church is using the shoeboxes to evangelize, it's right there on their very own website.

Now, that's a very different story. Not the one we were just fed, that they were innocently sending these shoeboxes that didn't have anything to do with their evangelical efforts, but instead they are sending these shoe boxes with the express intent to evangelize. And they're using the efforts of children in a federally funded school, the literal establishment of a religion in this case, really.

I think that the AHA has a point. There are secular ways for them to promote community assistance in the school and Operation Christmas Child does not seem the best fit.

EDIT: Forgot the link to the original letter EDIT2:Forgot the organizations link in the first example as well...

[Neuereland]

*Takes prizes*

Anyway, are you saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme Court rulings say that you can't give to charities with religious affiliation?

No, we're saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme court rulings say that PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS can't ORGANIZE AND SUPPORT charities with religious affiliations.

Again, global literacy rates are worrying me.

Where does it say a school cant support a charity? please, I would like to know.

[Regnum Dominae]

That's irrelevant.

It's also illegal to have school sponsored Bible readings or prayers, even if you don't force students to attend them.

So, you are saying that the very act of having religious activities in a school or subtly promoting them is illegal/should be illegal?

Depends on whether they're being organized, operated, and promoted by students or by the school.

[The Flood]

If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

You know, the very principle that religion and government should not mix is a founding principle of the country...you're at odds with a central tenant of the American idea.

And do you know why they did that? Because religions in government had led to government enforced religious persecution. This wasn't an abstract "could in a kind of way," but "This shit is why a bunch of us piled on a boat and traveled to a strange untamed land" way.

Because it's all fine and dandy when it's your religion, but when it's not?

If this were a charity that gave the express interest of spreading the word of Mohammad to the glory of Allah, would we be trying to shrug this off? How about it being the Jehovah Witnesses that get to decide what religious laws are real laws, or use an institution your children are compelled to attend to enforce their values, or the snake handlers? What do we do when the people using the government institutions to compel and promote quibble over which part of the book is super important to them...how long before Mormons or whoever else has to go set up colonies somewhere else because the other religions in government?

This is the part that gets lost. It's not just to protect me from you using the government to compel your religion, it's to protect you and your ability to freely practice as well.

A government giving a little money to a few Christian schools or charities is not even comparable to what you're talking about. There is no similarity between allowing a Manger display in front of a courthouse, and killing everyone who isn't X religion. Secularism can exist without banning freedom of religion on public property; we have it right here in Canada with out public Catholic schools, and buses that say Merry Christmas on them. And yet, hordes of steaming atheists are trying to destroy this here as well.

[Benuty]

What the hell are they putting in the water...clearly something since people are not reading the OP at all.

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

How is a public school helping a religious charity,that helps needy children, forcing your religion on others.

So...I usually use the three page rule, but I'm severely fucking bored tonight. Obviously, I'm not going to just buy the whole "Haha, fuck you, church" motivation presented, so I thought I'd look into what AHA objects to specifically. Here, from the actual letter sent:


This, of course, is on the front page of the organizations website:

"Helping in Jesus' Name" is across the top just under the title.

The letter continues-

Here is a report about the booklet in the shoe boxes.
Apparently, this was raised as a concern originally in the UK-


It's important to note that this goal is stated on their website:


So, it's not a conspiracy theory that this church is using the shoeboxes to evangelize, it's right there on their very own website.

Now, that's a very different story. Not the one we were just fed, that they were innocently sending these shoeboxes that didn't have anything to do with their evangelical efforts, but instead they are sending these shoe boxes with the express intent to evangelize. And they're using the efforts of children in a federally funded school, the literal establishment of a religion in this case, really.

I think that the AHA has a point. There are secular ways for them to promote community assistance in the school and Operation Christmas Child does not seem the best fit.

EDIT: Forgot the link to the original letter EDIT2:Forgot the organizations link in the first example as well...

You keep waving this like you found a golden ticket. This groups agenda does not matter in the long run, if you actually read the situation described. You are the one who gets in the way of aid in your arrogant new age self satisfaction that you are right in the face of all morality.

Charity is charity regardless of religion. You are petty if you fail to see moral good in an action. How is this separation of church and state? This is just anti- religious propaganda spread by a group that had no right to get involved. And your counter of "they should get secular aid" is hypocritical. You are denying them the right to AID people.

[The Emerald Dawn]

No, we're saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme court rulings say that PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS can't ORGANIZE AND SUPPORT charities with religious affiliations.

Again, global literacy rates are worrying me.

Where does it say a school cant support a charity? please, I would like to know.

Who is saying that they can't?

[The Emerald Dawn]

You keep waving this like you found a golden ticket. This groups agenda does not matter in the long run, if you actually read the situation described. You are the one who gets in the way of aid in your arrogant new age self satisfaction that you are right in the face of all morality.

Charity is charity regardless of religion. You are petty if you fail to see moral good in an action. How is this separation of church and state? This is just anti- religious propaganda spread by a group that had no right to get involved. And your counter of "they should get secular aid" is hypocritical. You are denying them the right to AID people.

Actually, according to the law, it really does matter.

I'm sorry you don't like being wrong, really I am.

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

No, we're saying that the US Constitution and the Supreme court rulings say that PUBLICLY FUNDED SCHOOLS can't ORGANIZE AND SUPPORT charities with religious affiliations.

Again, global literacy rates are worrying me.

Where does it say a school cant support a charity? please, I would like to know.

THANK YOU. Charity is charity regardless of faith. Lets promote that instead of mindlessly bashing each others beliefs!

[Anollasia]

What the hell are they putting in the water...clearly something since people are not reading the OP at all.

Tl;dr.

[The Flood]

I can't believe you guys are going haywire on this school for trying to do something good for a change. It doesn't matter whether it is religious or secular, when aid and charity are being given, denying it on such idiotic abstract concepts is just pathetic.

The charity was not a religious activity in the slightest. Are we going to cut all religious charity groups for attempting to associate themselves or organize events to help people? This gratuitous anti- religious threads are making me really upset, at the sheer level of almost comical hatred and venom the people on this thread contain.

Theres a difference from preventing religious discrimination and theocracies, and censoring out every mention to a religious holiday, and from allowing any religious affiliated group to get off their backsides and help people.

See, this guy knows what the hell he's talking about.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I can't believe you guys are going haywire on this school for trying to do something good for a change. It doesn't matter whether it is religious or secular, when aid and charity are being given, denying it on such idiotic abstract concepts is just pathetic.

The charity was not a religious activity in the slightest. Are we going to cut all religious charity groups for attempting to associate themselves or organize events to help people? This gratuitous anti- religious threads are making me really upset, at the sheer level of almost comical hatred and venom the people on this thread contain.

Theres a difference from preventing religious discrimination and theocracies, and censoring out every mention to a religious holiday, and from allowing any religious affiliated group to get off their backsides and help people.

See, this guy knows what the hell he's talking about.

So, you don't support the rule of law?

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

See, this guy knows what the hell he's talking about.

So, you don't support the rule of law?

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT CHARITY HAS TO BE SECULAR! What law and amendment was passed. Seperation of Church and State is not about charity. It is about the government.

[The Emerald Dawn]

So, you don't support the rule of law?

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT CHARITY HAS TO BE SECULAR! What law and amendment was passed. Seperation of Church and State is not about charity. It is about the government.

....So you haven't read the thread?

[Regnum Dominae]

So, you don't support the rule of law?

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT CHARITY HAS TO BE SECULAR! What law and amendment was passed. Seperation of Church and State is not about charity. It is about the government.

And public schools are operated by...