School Cancels Christmas Charity

[Benuty]

Okay, so they spend an extra minute or two saying some religious stuff. Doesn't mean they spend hours trying to convert people. "Hello, merry Christmas, God loves you!" Something akin to that doesn't seem synonymous with pestering.

So...I usually use the three page rule, but I'm severely fucking bored tonight. Obviously, I'm not going to just buy the whole "Haha, fuck you, church" motivation presented, so I thought I'd look into what AHA objects to specifically. Here, from the actual letter sent:


This, of course, is on the front page of the organizations website:

"Helping in Jesus' Name" is across the top just under the title.

The letter continues-

Here is a report about the booklet in the shoe boxes.
Apparently, this was raised as a concern originally in the UK-


It's important to note that this goal is stated on their website:


So, it's not a conspiracy theory that this church is using the shoeboxes to evangelize, it's right there on their very own website.

Now, that's a very different story. Not the one we were just fed, that they were innocently sending these shoeboxes that didn't have anything to do with their evangelical efforts, but instead they are sending these shoe boxes with the express intent to evangelize. And they're using the efforts of children in a federally funded school, the literal establishment of a religion in this case, really.

I think that the AHA has a point. There are secular ways for them to promote community assistance in the school and Operation Christmas Child does not seem the best fit.

EDIT: Forgot the link to the original letter EDIT2:Forgot the organizations link in the first example as well...

You do realize just reposting it without highlighting the central issue makes the point less noticeable?

[The Emerald Dawn]

The First Amendment does not in any way stop charities. What it does do, however, is stop public schools from associating with religious organizations.

Which it should not, because that is absurd and anti-religious. And on top of that, it is not even the original intent of the amendment. It is currently being used to suppress religion by hateful atheists, when its original purpose was exactly the opposite; to protect religion.

[Citation Needed]

[The Emerald Dawn]

You do realize just reposting it without highlighting the central issue makes the point less noticeable?

They're not going to bother reading the god damn thing, and I'm not going to post part after part after part when they ask the inevitable, and fucking retarded, follow up questions.

[Knowlandia]

Couldn't they just change "Christmas" to "Holiday"?

[Cannot think of a name]

Couldn't they just change "Christmas" to "Holiday"?

You didn't just not read the thread, you didn't even read the OP...good lord, man.

[The Flood]

The constitution is a 250 year old outdated piece of rubbish, it needs to be rewritten, and with the state enforced atheism removed.

THERE IS NO STATE-ENFORCED ATHEISM!!! Leave that damn bubble you've been living in, already.

If religion is not freely permitted to all people in all places in all situations, the government is suppressing it and this should be illegal. Public schools should be allowed to be religious, the government should be allowed to fund religious institutions, religious symbols should be allowed on public property. If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

[Blasveck]

THERE IS NO STATE-ENFORCED ATHEISM!!! Leave that damn bubble you've been living in, already.

If religion is not freely permitted to all people in all places in all situations, the government is suppressing it and this should be illegal. Public schools should be allowed to be religious, the government should be allowed to fund religious institutions, religious symbols should be allowed on public property. If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

If you cannot understnd how the Constitution works, you DO NOT have a right to misconstrue whatever you want about the document.

[Benuty]

Couldn't they just change "Christmas" to "Holiday"?

This has nothing to do with winter festivities (Saturnalia), this has to do with the fact the school is actively participating with the charity ( of religious origin). Had the charity been allowed to hand out presents (without the active presence of the school) then I am sure it wouldn't have been as controversial.

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Okay, so they spend an extra minute or two saying some religious stuff. Doesn't mean they spend hours trying to convert people. "Hello, merry Christmas, God loves you!" Something akin to that doesn't seem synonymous with pestering.

Snip

Okay, so after reading the letter I see that they include a little promotion of their religious beliefs. Still, they ain't forcing anyone to convert to their religious views.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Okay, so after reading the letter I see that they include a little promotion of their religious beliefs. Still, they ain't forcing anyone to convert to their religious views.

And yet, they're breaking the law.

They get to go back to "Start" and try again.

[Blahbania]

If religion is not freely permitted to all people in all places in all situations, the government is suppressing it and this should be illegal. Public schools should be allowed to be religious, the government should be allowed to fund religious institutions, religious symbols should be allowed on public property. If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

If you cannot understnd how the Constitution works, you DO NOT have a right to misconstrue whatever you want about the document.

So are you saying that the constitution prohibits freedom of expression/religion?

[Mavorpen]

Okay, so after reading the letter I see that they include a little promotion of their religious beliefs. Still, they ain't forcing anyone to convert to their religious views.

Which is irrelevant.

A public school forcing atheists to attend a public prayer is illegal, despite the fact it doesn't force anyone to convert.

[The Emerald Dawn]

THERE IS NO STATE-ENFORCED ATHEISM!!! Leave that damn bubble you've been living in, already.

If religion is not freely permitted to all people in all places in all situations, the government is suppressing it and this should be illegal. Public schools should be allowed to be religious, the government should be allowed to fund religious institutions, religious symbols should be allowed on public property. If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

[Citation Needed]

[The Flood]

The constitution is a 250 year old outdated piece of rubbish, it needs to be rewritten, and with the state enforced atheism removed.

Secularism =/= State Atheism

I would agree with you if secularism was actually secularism in the USA, but it is not. If religious displays were allowed on public property, and the government was allowed to fund religious institutions, I would fully agree with you. But until then, secularism as it currently stands is state enforced atheism.

[Bundesdeutschland]

Oh, for goodness sake, it's a CHARITY!

[The Emerald Dawn]

Oh, for goodness sake, it's a CHARITY!

....literacy standards globally are slipping.

[Neuereland]

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a hungry kid in Africa I would be pretty down to get some food, even if it meant I had to sit through a little speech or look at a flyer. I would also be pretty bummed if I discover I'm not eating this week because some "pro-human" group said that having a religious charity running a food drive was wrong.

[Benuty]

Oh, for goodness sake, it's a CHARITY!

Read the Op very slowly then wait a minute ( so it sinks in) and then respond.

So what have we learned from actually reading the Op?

[The Emerald Dawn]

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a hungry kid in Africa I would be pretty down to get some food, even if it meant I had to sit through a little speech or look at a flyer. I would also be pretty bummed if I discover I'm not eating this week because some "pro-human" group said that having a religious charity running a food drive was wrong.

That's great.

It has exactly what to do with a school in the US?

[Fascist Russian Empire]

Okay, so after reading the letter I see that they include a little promotion of their religious beliefs. Still, they ain't forcing anyone to convert to their religious views.

Which is irrelevant.

A public school forcing atheists to attend a public prayer is illegal, despite the fact it doesn't force anyone to convert.

Wait, where exactly does it say that?

[Regnum Dominae]

Oh, for goodness sake, it's a CHARITY!

So...I usually use the three page rule, but I'm severely fucking bored tonight. Obviously, I'm not going to just buy the whole "Haha, fuck you, church" motivation presented, so I thought I'd look into what AHA objects to specifically. Here, from the actual letter sent:

As you should know, Samaritan’s Purse is a self-proclaimed “evangelical Christian organization providing spiritual and physical aid to hurting people around the world. . .with the purpose of sharing God’s love through His Son, Jesus Christ.” Its mission is “to follow the example of Christ by helping those in need and proclaiming the hope of the Gospel” and motto is “HELPING IN JESUS’ NAME.”

This, of course, is on the front page of the organizations website:

Since 1993, more than 100 million boys and girls in over 130 countries have experienced God’s love through the power of simple shoebox gifts from Operation Christmas Child. Samaritan’s Purse works with local churches and ministry partners to deliver the gifts and share the life-changing Good News of Jesus Christ.

"Helping in Jesus' Name" is across the top just under the title.

The letter continues-

The evangelical booklet delivered with the toys includes a conversion pledge for the child
to sign. As its founder has admitted, Operation Christmas Child “is about introducing children and their families to God’s greatest gift-His Son, Jesus Christ” and that “evangelism is the focus”of the program. He has boasted that the program has converted “tens of thousands of children and their families,”citing an example where “one shoebox prepared the way for nearly two dozen people to come to faith in Jesus Christ.” The shoebox giftsare used to “ support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in the communities.”

Here is a report about the booklet in the shoe boxes.
Apparently, this was raised as a concern originally in the UK-

Yet many of the scheme's supporters, who include thousands of schools, are unaware that the organisation behind it is a US-based, evangelical and missionary Christian charity led by a controversial fundamentalist. Parents and teachers are not told that the boxes are in many cases sent overseas with religious literature.

It's important to note that this goal is stated on their website:

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.

So, it's not a conspiracy theory that this church is using the shoeboxes to evangelize, it's right there on their very own website.

Now, that's a very different story. Not the one we were just fed, that they were innocently sending these shoeboxes that didn't have anything to do with their evangelical efforts, but instead they are sending these shoe boxes with the express intent to evangelize. And they're using the efforts of children in a federally funded school, the literal establishment of a religion in this case, really.

I think that the AHA has a point. There are secular ways for them to promote community assistance in the school and Operation Christmas Child does not seem the best fit.

EDIT: Forgot the link to the original letter EDIT2:Forgot the organizations link in the first example as well...

[Neo Rome Republic]

THERE IS NO STATE-ENFORCED ATHEISM!!! Leave that damn bubble you've been living in, already.

If religion is not freely permitted to all people in all places in all situations, the government is suppressing it and this should be illegal. Public schools should be allowed to be religious, the government should be allowed to fund religious institutions, religious symbols should be allowed on public property. If you disagree, you support state enforced atheism and pure bigotry at its finest.

Talk to me when you make quit making strawman's, and get a dictionary and learn what the word SECULARISM means, then maybe Ill listen. Because you clearly don't know, what the fuck you are talking about. The only thing you seem to be capable of doing, is throwing around the word ''bigot'' to anyone who disagrees with you.

[Mavorpen]

I don't know about you guys, but if I were a hungry kid in Africa I would be pretty down to get some food, even if it meant I had to sit through a little speech or look at a flyer. I would also be pretty bummed if I discover I'm not eating this week because some "pro-human" group said that having a religious charity running a food drive was wrong.

What does this have to do with the topic?

[Blasveck]

If you cannot understnd how the Constitution works, you DO NOT have a right to misconstrue whatever you want about the document.

So are you saying that the constitution prohibits freedom of expression/religion?

Am I?

Fuck no, I'm not.

The government is secular. As in, it doesn't even recognize or sponsor religion.
This is different from State Atheism, where religion/religious folks are actively persecuted to wipe out religion. Under a secular, and not State Atheist government, religion is still allowed to exist per the First Amendement. The US government just doesn't recognize it.

[The Flood]

If you cannot understnd how the Constitution works, you DO NOT have a right to misconstrue whatever you want about the document.

So are you saying that the constitution prohibits freedom of expression/religion?

Even if that is not what he's saying, it is exactly what the constitution does.