School Cancels Christmas Charity

[Mavorpen]

How so?

The goals, as expressed on their website:

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.


Through gift-filled shoeboxes, Operation Christmas Child helps link churches and people in the United States with churches overseas. As the gifts are delivered, boys and girls learn that God loves them so much that He sent another gift – His son, Jesus – as their Savior.

The description of the event in question:

Since 1993, more than 100 million boys and girls in over 130 countries have experienced God’s love through the power of simple shoebox gifts from Operation Christmas Child. Samaritan’s Purse works with local churches and ministry partners to deliver the gifts and share the life-changing Good News of Jesus Christ.

Note that in each case, they explicitly express their primary goal as being to convert children. Actually helping them is clearly just a secondary goal for them.

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

but how is encouraging a religion the same as converting (because from the website, the donated boxes or gifts may contain words of Jesus, but not other forms that can be considered as conversion). also, is the charity really setting out to convert other people? i find that a little bit of an exaggeration, again referring to the website

Did you look at the website
Did you read the website
Can you read?
There is no possible way to skirt around what they state flat out is their goal.
At this point if they said that 1+1=3 you might defend them by saying that maybe they meant 1^3

[Luveria]

No.

I really don't find this offensive or unconstitutional

Then that's your problem. If the school shared your views, they wouldn't have buckled down as quickly as they did.

[The Emerald Dawn]

but how is encouraging a religion the same as converting (because from the website, the donated boxes or gifts may contain words of Jesus, but not other forms that can be considered as conversion). also, is the charity really setting out to convert other people? i find that a little bit of an exaggeration, again referring to the website

Did you look at the website
Did you read the website
Can you read?
There is no possible way to skirt around what they state flat out is their goal.
At this point if they said that 1+1=3 you might defend them by saying that maybe they meant 1^3

One cubed is one....

[Yusova]

I really don't find this offensive or unconstitutional

Would you care to elaborate? There's been an awful lot said about how it is unconstitutional, maybe you'd like to respond to some of it? Maybe you'd like to expand on just why you think it is constitutional?

Well from what I gather its just a bible and a letter of conversion. I got shit loads of those from charities like this, and trust, it didn't turn me Christian, besides, I see nothing on the state being involved, unless I missed it.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Would you care to elaborate? There's been an awful lot said about how it is unconstitutional, maybe you'd like to respond to some of it? Maybe you'd like to expand on just why you think it is constitutional?

Well from what I gather its just a bible and a letter of conversion. I got shit loads of those from charities like this, and trust, it didn't turn me Christian, besides, I see nothing on the state being involved, unless I missed it.

The school is kind of state-run.

[Thanatttynia]

I admit that, yes, and my argument was not that it was not unconstitutional, but rather that it should not be unconstitutional.

Then there is nothing for you to be discussing here.

There's not?

The two goals are not mutually exclusive.

I'm not suggesting they are. That's irrelevant to the matter at hand.

It is?

I apologise to everyone for debating in a debate topic.

I admit that, yes, and my argument was not that it was not unconstitutional, but rather that it should not be unconstitutional.

Why on Earth would it ever be acceptable to violate the constitution by including toys? Should the police be able to search your house without a warrant if they leave you a Rubik's cube?

No, and I suggested nothing along the lines of that. You're taking my argument and putting it into completely different situations. I think it's acceptable to include a bible/letter on why you should convert in a box full of toys for underprivileged children.

Wow. A new low, certainly. I have fundraised for this charity in the past, and despite it being a Catholic charity, it does not deny help to Africans that aren't Catholic, I see no problem in it, and I think the AHA is being unnecessary, and for want of a better word, mean. This charity is no different to any other charity raising money to send gifts to underprivileged children.

Samaritan's Purse is not a Catholic charity.

Sorry, a slip of the hand.

[Yusova]

Well from what I gather its just a bible and a letter of conversion. I got shit loads of those from charities like this, and trust, it didn't turn me Christian, besides, I see nothing on the state being involved, unless I missed it.

The school is kind of state-run.

But it's one school, not even the district

[Umbra Ac Silentium]

Did you look at the website
Did you read the website
Can you read?
There is no possible way to skirt around what they state flat out is their goal.
At this point if they said that 1+1=3 you might defend them by saying that maybe they meant 1^3

One cubed is one....

I am aware. Because both are dead wrong no matter how you twist it.

[The Emerald Dawn]

The school is kind of state-run.

But it's one school, not even the district

And it's still state-run, meaning the state is still involved.

[Luveria]

Then there is nothing for you to be discussing here.

There's not?

No. If you want to make a thread that separation of church and state should be removed from US laws, then feel free to do so. Here isn't the place.

[Neo Rome Republic]

But it's one school, not even the district

And it's still state-run, meaning the state is still involved.

It's also publicly funded. Just thought I'd point that out.

[Yusova]

But it's one school, not even the district

And it's still state-run, meaning the state is still involved.

But the decision probably wasn't even made a state official
Probably a principle which barley classifies as a state official

[Neo Rome Republic]

And it's still state-run, meaning the state is still involved.

But the decision probably wasn't even made a state official
Probably a principle which barley classifies as a state official

It also gets people's tax dollars.
This is still a school where government is involved, in it's functions.

[Yusova]

But the decision probably wasn't even made a state official
Probably a principle which barley classifies as a state official

It also gets people's tax dollars.

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

[The Emerald Dawn]

It also gets people's tax dollars.

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

[Neo Rome Republic]

It also gets people's tax dollars.

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

There's also such a thing, as me not giving a shit.
Leave political correctness out of this.
This is still a School where government is involved in it's functions.
Religion should stay out, PERIOD.

[Yusova]

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

A law that only works because we can barely make it fit this case?

[Ifreann]

The children this charity is setting out to convert aren't the schoolchildren donating the toys, its the children who would be receiving the toys. That is the problem.

---

but how is encouraging a religion the same as converting (because from the website, the donated boxes or gifts may contain words of Jesus, but not other forms that can be considered as conversion).

...because that's what those words mean. Encouraging someone to join a religion is the same as trying to convert them to a religion.

also, is the charity really setting out to convert other people? i find that a little bit of an exaggeration, again referring to the website

Yes, it is. Note how they're talking about spreading the word of God and Jesus and things like that.

fair enough, but it is still a choice whether to donate to that charity or not, and there is no pressure from the charity itself

It doesn't matter if there's pressure to donate or not. The point is that they're operating on the premises of a public school, and public schools aren't allowed endorse religions like that. At all. Ever. It is super illegal.

---

Would you care to elaborate? There's been an awful lot said about how it is unconstitutional, maybe you'd like to respond to some of it? Maybe you'd like to expand on just why you think it is constitutional?

Well from what I gather its just a bible and a letter of conversion. I got shit loads of those from charities like this, and trust, it didn't turn me Christian,

It doesn't matter whether it would work or not, it matters that they are trying.

besides, I see nothing on the state being involved, unless I missed it.

You missed it, because this is happening in a public school.

---

I'm not suggesting they are. That's irrelevant to the matter at hand.

It is?

I apologise to everyone for debating in a debate topic.

Debate the right topic next time.

Why on Earth would it ever be acceptable to violate the constitution by including toys? Should the police be able to search your house without a warrant if they leave you a Rubik's cube?

No, and I suggested nothing along the lines of that. You're taking my argument and putting it into completely different situations. I think it's acceptable to include a bible/letter on why you should convert in a box full of toys for underprivileged children.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? The problem isn't that the charity are evangelising, the problem is that they're using public school property as part of their evangelist mission. Gods, are we going to have to explain again how it is unconstitutional for schools to endorse a religion like that again? Because I'm seriously inclined to just repeat "Read the fucking thread" until people stop asking questions that have already been answered.

---

The school is kind of state-run.

But it's one school, not even the district

So what?

[Neo Rome Republic]

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

BINGO!!! Ding-Ding-Ding, WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

[Condunum]

It also gets people's tax dollars.

Still, I don't see this as being as bad as its being chalked up
There is such thing as being too liberal

I came back knowing full well this would be what was in the thread.

Thank you for going down to my expectations.

[Farnhamia]

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

A law that only works because we can barely make it fit this case?

Don't like it? Amend the Constitution.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

A law that only works because we can barely make it fit this case?

We can actually fit it rather well.

You seem to be the one having a hard time understanding how the Department of Education works.

[Ifreann]

Law is law, whether you agree with it or not.

A law that only works because we can barely make it fit this case?

US law is quite clear on schools not being allowed to promote religion. As has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread.

[Yusova]

A law that only works because we can barely make it fit this case?

Don't like it? Amend the Constitution.

The entire thing is based around how a public school is owned, but barely run by state
you know what
Whatever, if you want children to not receive charity because you can just hardly argue its unconstitutional then enjoy the fact you are stopping help from going to children