School Cancels Christmas Charity

[Blahbania]

In what way is this bad? They aren't forcing people to convert to their beliefs.

Secular institutions are not supposed to support religious organizations.

What law says that?

[Cannot think of a name]

Do not presume to guess my mood.

Pots and kettles?

While you were scolding me for my moods, you missed the edit, which is understandable, so here it is for you again...though I remind that these sources were actually available to you from page one of the thread with all the other things I linked...so, you know...
-
EDIT: It occurs to me that I actually provided (well, through AHA) these court cases on page one-
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/492/573/case.html

also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v. ... _Education
also also, the lemon test.


Nothing to do with intolerance. Come down off that cross.

Then excuse me, when you lit me up with curses I assumed that you were angry. I just want to make sure that this doesn't devolve into a mudslinging contest, that's all.

If I flame you, report it. But I'm going to swear and not feel fucking bad about it.

I'm sorry I missed the edit, I checked all three sources you provided.

The first case (Allegheny v. ACLU) is somewhat related, but not quite. In the end, the justices permit the menorah and the creche to remain up. This actually helps my case, thank you.

The second concerns the government paying teachers at religious private schools and does not apply,

As I suspected, you are in fact looking for a specific case where this specific situation comes up.

That's not how it works. Read the whole fucking decision and how it is applied.

The third source, the lemon test, is an excellent reference, but doesn't prove or disprove anything. It describes the process by which the courts will look at situations like this. The courts, according to the lemon test, would be have to look seriously at the potential lawsuit. This doesn't mean that they would rule against the charity.

Yes it does. Because this doesn't pass.

Finally, I'm not on a cross, I'm being completely serious. Today's culture tolerates almost everything except Christianity. This is intolerance of Christianity. Don't make it out to be anything but.

This is almost the very definition of being on the cross. When a Christian in America tries to whine about intolerance and oppression a little bit of language dies.

[The Ben Boys]

As a devout Christian, I have no problem contributing to a secular or non-Christian charity. I myself have contributed to a synagouge-sponsored clothes drive, and despite the sponsor contradicting my beliefs I understand that it's for someone else, not myself, and is not used to further their beliefs.

And while the tales of your life are just riveting, they have no relevance to this situation in which the charity in question is absolutely trying to further their beliefs. The whole thing is an evangelist mission. They're doing this to spread the message of Jesus.

And while sarcastic attention is much appreciated, I didn't see where the organization spreads their beliefs (though I have been wrong before).

[Timothia]

As a devout Christian, I have no problem contributing to a secular or non-Christian charity. I myself have contributed to a synagouge-sponsored clothes drive, and despite the sponsor contradicting my beliefs I understand that it's for someone else, not myself, and is not used to further their beliefs.

And while the tales of your life are just riveting, they have no relevance to this situation in which the charity in question is absolutely trying to further their beliefs. The whole thing is an evangelist mission. They're doing this to spread the message of Jesus.

GOD FORBID! JESUS? NOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo

If the mission of Jesus is inspiring them to help little kids, why inhibit them?

[Gallup]

What about all the people who will befit from it?

What about all the people who could benefit from quartering soldiers in people's houses in peace time?

That hasn't been an issue since 1866.

[Ifreann]

One could, but it doesn't follow that the school cannot afford a decent lawyer just because 17% of the county is below the poverty, so one would should not.

I would think that having done nothing wrong would be the best possible case one could have when being sued. Besides which, you ignore the possibility of a lawyer offering their services pro bono

That's not the most likely situation at all. It's rather more likely that the school knew they would lose. I would expect they got legal advice to that effect.

---

So how do you know it would be upheld in any court? Can you even provide a ruling based on similar reasoning?

Your claim that they got legal advice is as baseless as my claim that they did it for financial reasons. We are both speculating, don't at like I'm insane for drawing a different conclusion than you. I just highly doubt that a Bible belt state would give up their Christian charities so easily unless it is because they can't afford it.

Strange thing to say. I would have figured that such devout people would find the money to hold onto their Christian charity if they thought they had a hope in hell(lols) of winning.

I'm sick of reading legal documents today, so I'm not going to keep looking for a case. As far as I know, there have been no rulings on this so far, so you cannot call it unconstitutional until there has been a ruling on a similar case.

More importantly, you cannot keep saying that your reasoning would hold up in court.

[Gallup]

What about all the people who will befit from it?

How do you know of people will truly benefit from it?

How do you know people won't?

[Mavorpen]

And while the tales of your life are just riveting, they have no relevance to this situation in which the charity in question is absolutely trying to further their beliefs. The whole thing is an evangelist mission. They're doing this to spread the message of Jesus.

GOD FORBID! JESUS? NOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo

If the mission of Jesus is inspiring them to help little kids, why inhibit them?

Because it's the law.

[Cannot think of a name]

And while the tales of your life are just riveting, they have no relevance to this situation in which the charity in question is absolutely trying to further their beliefs. The whole thing is an evangelist mission. They're doing this to spread the message of Jesus.

And while sarcastic attention is much appreciated, I didn't see where the organization spreads their beliefs (though I have been wrong before).

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.

Through gift-filled shoeboxes, Operation Christmas Child helps link churches and people in the United States with churches overseas. As the gifts are delivered, boys and girls learn that God loves them so much that He sent another gift – His son, Jesus – as their Savior.

A shoebox “doesn’t just carry love and compassion and a tangible expression of that, but it carries the message of Jesus,” said Giglio, explaining why the children’s ministry at Passion City Church participates in the Samaritan’s Purse project.

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/article/ ... -gospel-2/

[Mavorpen]

How do you know of people will truly benefit from it?

How do you know people won't?

So if I break into a rich person's house and sell their stuff, then distribute the money to the poor, I can argue in court "what about the people who benefited!" and win?

Seems legit.

[Blahbania]

GOD FORBID! JESUS? NOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo

If the mission of Jesus is inspiring them to help little kids, why inhibit them?

Because it's the law.

What law says charities can't help little children, and be religious?

[The Emerald Dawn]

In what way is this bad? They aren't forcing people to convert to their beliefs.

And as far as I know, they aren't using it to further or spread their beliefs.

Reread the thread.

It's been pointed out how they are, in fact, doing just that.

[Cannot think of a name]

Because it's the law.

What law says charities can't help little children, and be religious?

Who says that's a relevant question to the situation at hand?

[Mavorpen]

Because it's the law.

What law says charities can't help little children, and be religious?

Did you intentionally ask me a stupid question that has nothing to do with the topic, or was that a mistake?

[Tel]

Ehehe, and people tell me that the ebil relijuns are the root of all evil on the planet.

Ironic.

[Cannot think of a name]

Ehehe, and people tell me that the ebil relijuns are the root of all evil on the planet.

Ironic.

Are you getting your definitions from Canada alternative rockers again?

[Mavorpen]

Ehehe, and people tell me that the ebil relijuns are the root of all evil on the planet.

Ironic.

Following the law is evil, guys.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Ehehe, and people tell me that the ebil relijuns are the root of all evil on the planet.

Ironic.

Following the law is evil, guys.

I *am* Lawful Evil.

[The Ben Boys]

And while sarcastic attention is much appreciated, I didn't see where the organization spreads their beliefs (though I have been wrong before).

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.

Through gift-filled shoeboxes, Operation Christmas Child helps link churches and people in the United States with churches overseas. As the gifts are delivered, boys and girls learn that God loves them so much that He sent another gift – His son, Jesus – as their Savior.

A shoebox “doesn’t just carry love and compassion and a tangible expression of that, but it carries the message of Jesus,” said Giglio, explaining why the children’s ministry at Passion City Church participates in the Samaritan’s Purse project.

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/article/ ... -gospel-2/

Well, looks like I royally screw the pooch.

I am, whole heartedly, wrong, and may be quoted on that. Doesn't mean I like the fact that an otherwise industrious charity can no longer operate at East Academy, nor do I enjoy the fact that some children that would benefit are no longer able to benefit. But I can sympathize from a legal basis.

[Blahbania]

And as far as I know, they aren't using it to further or spread their beliefs.

Reread the thread.

It's been pointed out how they are, in fact, doing just that.

I just reread the the thread, in what way are they trying to spread their beliefs, and/or forcing people to convert to their beliefs.

[Aeken]

How do you know of people will truly benefit from it?

How do you know people won't?

That's the thing. We don't. But that does not justify breaking the law. A religious organization can do whatever it wants in a community as long as it does not affect secular institutions. It's essentially using the students as tools.

[Timothia]

Then excuse me, when you lit me up with curses I assumed that you were angry. I just want to make sure that this doesn't devolve into a mudslinging contest, that's all.

If I flame you, report it. But I'm going to swear and not feel fucking bad about it.

I'm sorry I missed the edit, I checked all three sources you provided.

The first case (Allegheny v. ACLU) is somewhat related, but not quite. In the end, the justices permit the menorah and the creche to remain up. This actually helps my case, thank you.

The second concerns the government paying teachers at religious private schools and does not apply,

As I suspected, you are in fact looking for a specific case where this specific situation comes up.

That's not how it works. Read the whole fucking decision and how it is applied.

The third source, the lemon test, is an excellent reference, but doesn't prove or disprove anything. It describes the process by which the courts will look at situations like this. The courts, according to the lemon test, would be have to look seriously at the potential lawsuit. This doesn't mean that they would rule against the charity.

Yes it does. Because this doesn't pass.

Finally, I'm not on a cross, I'm being completely serious. Today's culture tolerates almost everything except Christianity. This is intolerance of Christianity. Don't make it out to be anything but.

This is almost the very definition of being on the cross. When a Christian in America tries to whine about intolerance and oppression a little bit of language dies.

You're not flaming, I just want to keep it away from that. Feel free to cuss me out as much as you like and I'll chose not to. I didn't seek out "a case where this specific situation comes up", you sourced it. Remember? In the other case (which you conveniently ignored) the "overt religious symbols" were allowed to remain. Why?

"When a non-Christian in America tries to insult a Christian, he fails miserably because the Christian was taught to be loving and tolerant to his enemies."

[The Emerald Dawn]

Reread the thread.

It's been pointed out how they are, in fact, doing just that.

I just reread the the thread, in what way are they trying to spread their beliefs, and/or forcing people to convert to their beliefs.

Lying is wrong, m'kay?

And while sarcastic attention is much appreciated, I didn't see where the organization spreads their beliefs (though I have been wrong before).

Giglio, the pastor of Passion City Church in Atlanta and leader of the Passion Conferences for college students, knows that packing shoebox gifts allows his congregation to support pastors and churches overseas who are committed to sharing the Gospel with children in their communities.

Through gift-filled shoeboxes, Operation Christmas Child helps link churches and people in the United States with churches overseas. As the gifts are delivered, boys and girls learn that God loves them so much that He sent another gift – His son, Jesus – as their Savior.

A shoebox “doesn’t just carry love and compassion and a tangible expression of that, but it carries the message of Jesus,” said Giglio, explaining why the children’s ministry at Passion City Church participates in the Samaritan’s Purse project.

http://www.samaritanspurse.org/article/ ... -gospel-2/

[Mavorpen]

Reread the thread.

It's been pointed out how they are, in fact, doing just that.

I just reread the the thread, in what way are they trying to spread their beliefs, and/or forcing people to convert to their beliefs.

The group in charge of the charity has the explicit goal of spreading the word of Jesus to children through this charity event.

This has been discussed ad nauseum, so I doubt you've read through the thread.

[Tel]

Ehehe, and people tell me that the ebil relijuns are the root of all evil on the planet.

Ironic.

Following the law is evil, guys.

I don't recall saying that, can you point to where I did? Sorry, I just don't see it.