gender-neutral bathroom mandate? poll

[New-Phoenicia]

Just use whichever bathroom is more suitable for you based on your physical appearence (not sex or gender, but whether you look more male or female) because that it safer for you physically and means other people aren't scared you are some kind of pervert.
If you are one of those special snowflake agender/pangender/genderqueer tumblr mentally ill freaks then you don't deserve to use public toilets. There is no need to create a new toilet for a group that make up 0.001% of the population, and which very few of this group would actually use, as many can pass as their desired gender and would use male/female toilets anyway, or would be more worried about hygiene and safety in a toilet for anyone to use.

*** Warned for trolling ***

These are my geniune beliefs. I accept the warning but I do not see how I was being a troll or any more offensive than any other posters in any way, I was simply expressing my views, which judging from the poll results are that of the majority.

Edit: Okay I understand: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=271241
If you find my opinion offensive to your beliefs you will just try to get me banned.

[Saiwania]

That is already what transgender people do, and they generally don't want a third bathroom, because it doesn't make sense having a third bathroom when they already identify as a gender.

I don't understand transgendered people and still don't get it being that I'm so used to the gender binary in my life. I think of them as just a minority group compared to cisgender people that is odd to say the least. I'm no advocate of transgender rights but I'm not as outright opposed to them as I used to be. It's difficult for me.

Is this thread discussing a third "gender neutral" bathroom being added or to combine the male and female bathrooms into one room so it will be "gender neutral?"

[Liriena]

*** Warned for trolling ***

These are my geniune beliefs. I accept the warning but I do not see how I was being a troll or any more offensive than any other posters in any way, I was simply expressing my views, which judging from the poll results are that of the majority.

Edit: Okay I understand: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=271241
If you find my opinion offensive to your beliefs you will just try to get me banned.

Calling agender, genderqueer and pangender people "mentally ill freaks" is trolling. You aren't just expressing your opinion. You are openly demeaning an entire group of people, to which many of your fellow users belong. If you had just said "I think genderqueer-ness is a mental illness", and maybe even argued why you thought so, it would have still been offensive, but you might have been given some leeway. After all, this is a debate forum. Instead, you trolled.

[Luveria]

That is already what transgender people do, and they generally don't want a third bathroom, because it doesn't make sense having a third bathroom when they already identify as a gender.

I don't understand transgendered people and still don't get it being that I'm so used to the gender binary in my life. I think of them as just a minority group compared to cisgender people that is odd to say the least. I'm no advocate of transgender rights but I'm not as outright opposed to them as I used to be. It's difficult for me.

To put it simply, transgender people are the gender they identify as and there isn't much more to it.

Is this thread discussing a third "gender neutral" bathroom being added or to combine the male and female bathrooms into one room so it will be "gender neutral?"

Not really. The OP created the thread explicitly for the purpose of being transphobic.

Trans-gender = someone that pretends to be a gender they were not born as (sometimes they mutilate their genitals and get plastic surgery).

[Ostroeuropa]

That is already what transgender people do, and they generally don't want a third bathroom, because it doesn't make sense having a third bathroom when they already identify as a gender.

I don't understand transgendered people and still don't get it being that I'm so used to the gender binary in my life. I think of them as just a minority group compared to cisgender people that is odd to say the least. I'm no advocate of transgender rights but I'm not as outright opposed to them as I used to be. It's difficult for me.

Is this thread discussing a third "gender neutral" bathroom being added or to combine the male and female bathrooms into one room so it will be "gender neutral?"

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

I'm curious as to how much as a percent are trans people? I was thinking that instead of building a third bathroom that it would be more practical to just let them use either the male or female bathrooms.

Suppose we're at an international airport in Germany circa 1940.

There are two bathrooms.

Germans and Austrians.

You have essentially proposed creating a third bathroom labeled "Jews" since Jews aren't REAL Germans or Austrians. (Something many of those Jews would take extreme offence at. Some of those Jews don't even identify as Jewish, but because of their birth status are classified as such. They think of themselves only as German/Austrian.)

I understand that you're trying so I don't think you realized what you were doing. That's how it looks/feels to me though. Hopefully that analogy shows you why a third bathroom is an unacceptable solution to this problem.

[Luveria]

I don't understand transgendered people and still don't get it being that I'm so used to the gender binary in my life. I think of them as just a minority group compared to cisgender people that is odd to say the least. I'm no advocate of transgender rights but I'm not as outright opposed to them as I used to be. It's difficult for me.

Is this thread discussing a third "gender neutral" bathroom being added or to combine the male and female bathrooms into one room so it will be "gender neutral?"

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

Suppose we're at an international airport in Germany circa 1940.

There are two bathrooms.

Germans and Austrians.

You have essentially proposed creating a third bathroom labeled "Jews" since Jews aren't REAL Germans or Austrians. (Something many of those Jews would take extreme offence at. Some of those Jews don't even identify as Jewish, but because of their birth status are classified as such. They think of themselves only as German/Austrian.)

I understand that you're trying so I don't think you realized what you were doing. That's how it looks/feels to me though. Hopefully that analogy shows you why a third bathroom is an unacceptable solution to this problem.

My reason for opposing third washrooms is because it's redundant. It's like having a third washroom for blacks, straight out of the Separate but Equal era. There's no actual reason to have a third washroom, and it's a bit contradictory to have a third washroom which both male and female transgender people are required to use. If the reason for having a third washroom is keeping genders separate, then why does that principle suddenly drop when transgender people are grouped together? If there were a shred of consistency in the arguments, then they would be advocating a third washroom for transgender males, and a fourth washroom for transgender females.

[Ostroeuropa]

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

My reason for opposing third washrooms is because it's redundant. It's like having a third washroom for blacks, straight out of the Separate but Equal era. There's no actual reason to have a third washroom, and it's a bit contradictory to have a third washroom which both male and female transgender people are required to use. If the reason for having a third washroom is keeping genders separate, then why does that principle suddenly drop when transgender people are grouped together? If there were a shred of consistency in the arguments, then they would be advocating a third washroom for transgender males, and a fourth washroom for transgender females.

To be fair, someone a while back did propose that they would prefer multiple single-person bathrooms to what we're proposing.
I'd take that as a comprimize, though it seems a tad expensive.

[Saiwania]

I don't care about segregation and in some cases approve of it. My only main objection to a third bathroom is that there are not enough trans people in comparison to cisgender people to justify the cost, harsh as it may sound.

[Hathradic States]

I don't understand transgendered people and still don't get it being that I'm so used to the gender binary in my life. I think of them as just a minority group compared to cisgender people that is odd to say the least. I'm no advocate of transgender rights but I'm not as outright opposed to them as I used to be. It's difficult for me.

Is this thread discussing a third "gender neutral" bathroom being added or to combine the male and female bathrooms into one room so it will be "gender neutral?"

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

Suppose we're at an international airport in Germany circa 1940.

There are two bathrooms.

Germans and Austrians.

You have essentially proposed creating a third bathroom labeled "Jews" since Jews aren't REAL Germans or Austrians. (Something many of those Jews would take extreme offence at. Some of those Jews don't even identify as Jewish, but because of their birth status are classified as such. They think of themselves only as German/Austrian.)

I understand that you're trying so I don't think you realized what you were doing. That's how it looks/feels to me though. Hopefully that analogy shows you why a third bathroom is an unacceptable solution to this problem.

The greater question would be why they have to have different bathrooms for Austrians and Germans.

[Luveria]

I don't care about segregation and in some cases approve of it. My only main objection to a third bathroom is that there are not enough trans people in comparison to cisgender people to justify to cost, harsh as it may sound.

You should take into consideration that transgender people don't want segregated washrooms. It's not an issue at all. They simply use the washroom of either the gender identify as or the one they pass as. Usually the one they pass as.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't care about segregation and in some cases approve of it. My only main objection to a third bathroom is that there are not enough trans people in comparison to cisgender people to justify to cost, harsh as it may sound.

You should take into consideration that transgender people don't want segregated washrooms. It's not an issue at all. They simply use the washroom of either the gender identify as or the one they pass as. Usually the one they pass as.

Pretty much. I use the male bathroom because it's simpler. Though every now and then I grit my teeth in annoyance.

[Ostroeuropa]

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

The greater question would be why they have to have different bathrooms for Austrians and Germans.

Exactly. There shouldn't be.
But if there is going to be, then adding a third room for "Jews" or "Non-German/Austrians" insults those who identify as German/Austrian and directly implies that German/Jew is somehow not compatible.

[Neutraligon]

You should take into consideration that transgender people don't want segregated washrooms. It's not an issue at all. They simply use the washroom of either the gender identify as or the one they pass as. Usually the one they pass as.

Pretty much. I use the male bathroom because it's simpler. Though every now and then I grit my teeth in annoyance.

I tend to use the female bathroom, unless there are no guys in the male bathroom and a line for the female bathroom.

[Linux and the X]

These are my geniune beliefs

Whether or not you actually believe something is irrelevant to the definition of trolling here, since it can't be proven.

[Volstein]

"Rape would increase," is the most disgusting coded language I have seen.

If you gave a fuck about sexual assault against Trans* individuals, the solution you would choose would be fixing the bathroom problem. But that's not what this is about; this is about your regressive fear of trans* citizens. Get out of the public discourse.

What I claimed has nothing to do with 'trans' people.

[Grenartia]

why do things need to be mandated? Let the businesses put it in place if there is actually a public demand.

There are enough laws as it is.

Because mandates, regulations, and other laws often protect minorities who would otherwise have no say, and would be treated like shit.

If you are a man (have a penis and XY chromosomes), you use the male bathroom. If you are a woman (have a vagina and XX chrosome), you use the female bathroom. Very, very simple. There is no need for politically correct bullshit like "gender-neutral bathrooms".

Fuck your bigoted bullshit, Hippo. I refuse to do as you suggest, because I refuse to willingly put myself in a situation where I'll very likely be beaten/raped/killed for simply being who I am. So FUCK. THAT. NOISE.

Also, what about XY females (who were born with vaginas) and XX males (who were born with penises)? Do they have to shit on the sidewalk or something?

If you are a man (have a penis and XY chromosomes), you use the male bathroom. If you are a woman (have a vagina and XX chrosome), you use the female bathroom. Very, very simple. There is no need for politically correct bullshit like "gender-neutral bathrooms".

If you have an XXY, you're screwed. If you have XO, you're screwed. If you have XYY, you're screwed. If you have no genitalia, you're screwed. If you underwent a gender change, you're screwed. If you underwent hormone replacement therapy, you're screwed. You sure like screwing over a lot of people.

But of course. He's Hippo. Uber-crapitalist. The single best argument that exists for socialism on this forum.

Why do we need seperate bathrooms?

1) Safety: It's much more safer for women to have separate bathrooms. Less chance of rape and so on.
2) Privacy: Quite simple, really. Men should have privacy to do their thing and the same with women. Quite a few people would find unisex bathrooms uncomfortable for this reason
3) Organization: Men's bathrooms tend to have more urinals and only a couple of stalls, while women's bathrooms only have stalls. You'd have to have both in an unisex bathroom, and women tend to take longer to use the bathroom anyway. It'd just be a huge mess.
4) Tradition: Not everyone has to be changed because the Political Correctness Police says so. World has enough degeneracy already.

1. So you're only concerned about rape when it happens to ciswomen. Yeah, that's a totally justifiable position.

4. Tradition for only tradition's sake is a shitty thing. Also, its not the "PC Police" or "degeneracy", its "basic human fucking dignity". But since when have you ever cared about that?

1) What about trans women? Are they not at risk in men's restrooms?

1. They might be, but the size of trans population is so small that this problem is negligibly small. Women getting molested or raped in unisex bathrooms would be a far larger problem.

2) Because... what? I really don't get this "privacy" thing. It's not like everybody walks around naked in bathrooms, and the fact that stalls exist and even urinals tend to have separations makes this whole "privacy" thing reek of typical reactionary word-dropping.

2. True. But many people would find it uncomfortable to do their thing when there are people of the opposite sex less than a few feet away from you, even when there's a door behind you and them.

4) Appeal to tradition? You, of all people, should know better.

3. Tradition is good and should be respected. 4. Change for the sake of change is a bad thing.

1. Except not really. Also, I find it despicable that you're willing to handwave away rape simply because the victims of it are of a group you don't like. Again, proving you have no respect for basic human dignity.

2. I'm pretty sure its less "person of the opposite sex" and more "person" that's the problem.

3. Only when said tradition doesn't actively deprive others of their reasonable rights without informed consent.

4. Except this isn't "change for the sake of change". Its change for the sake of improving things.

Yes, and denying people the right to express themselves as they see fit, is going to have a negative consequence on a lot of those people.

1. Nobody is denying their rights to express themselves. Just don't expect to have special rules and permissions so you can use the wrong toilet. I can't do it, so you can't do it either.

Gender =/= sex. You've been here long enough to know that.

2. This theory is fundamentally false. Scientifically they are the exact same thing. The theory that gender and sex are separate was invented by left-wing professors just a few decades ago and is actually a philosophical question, not a scientific one. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation pressured professors around the world to accept this deranged concept as a fact in the 60s, and that's why the myth that gender and sex are separate is still taught as a fact.

1. Except you are, and we're not.

2. Conspiracy theorist bullshit. There is no political bias in science. The only agenda science has is for the truth. If you can't accept that the truth has certain logical implications that a group you don't like shouldn't be treated like shit, then that's YOUR problem.

Just use whichever bathroom is more suitable for you based on your physical appearence (not sex or gender, but whether you look more male or female) because that it safer for you physically and means other people aren't scared you are some kind of pervert.
If you are one of those special snowflake agender/pangender/genderqueer tumblr mentally ill freaks then you don't deserve to use public toilets. There is no need to create a new toilet for a group that make up 0.001% of the population, and which very few of this group would actually use, as many can pass as their desired gender and would use male/female toilets anyway, or would be more worried about hygiene and safety in a toilet for anyone to use.

Well fuck your bigoted bullshit. With a rusty cactus lubricated with acid. Seriously. Also, there's plenty of people who would get use out of a gender-neutral facility in addition to the male and female ones. In addition to non-binary individuals like myself, whom you've just flamed, there's the binary transgender people who can't pass well enough to feel safe using the other two, and cisgendered people when the other bathroom is full.

Not cool, bro.

They're just special snowflakes begging for attention. Being trans is scientifically proven to be a medical condition. You can have a male body but mentally be female. These genderqueers however have no proof, they just want to fuck up everyones beliefs and morals and spread degeneracy through their mental illness, if they do so purposefully or coincidentally due to the number of mental issues they usually have I cannot tell.

Except, I'm not. And also, pretty sure the APA recognizes the existence of non-binary genders.

I'm curious as to how much as a percent are trans people? I was thinking that instead of building a third bathroom that it would be more practical to just let them use either the male or female bathrooms.

Suppose we're at an international airport in Germany circa 1940.

There are two bathrooms.

Germans and Austrians.

You have essentially proposed creating a third bathroom labeled "Jews" since Jews aren't REAL Germans or Austrians. (Something many of those Jews would take extreme offence at. Some of those Jews don't even identify as Jewish, but because of their birth status are classified as such. They think of themselves only as German/Austrian.)

I understand that you're trying so I don't think you realized what you were doing. That's how it looks/feels to me though. Hopefully that analogy shows you why a third bathroom is an unacceptable solution to this problem.

Except when I support a third restroom, to extend your analogy, I'm talking about adding a restroom for people, regardless of whether or not they're Germans, Austrians, Jews, or any other nationality/ethnic group.

Maybe the person doesn't consider themself to be German or Austrian. Maybe they're one, but the bathroom for them is full. Either way, it matters not, so long as they have a need for such a facility.

Both. But here is why I oppose a third bathroom.

The greater question would be why they have to have different bathrooms for Austrians and Germans.

I was wondering that as well, in addition to why Ostro chose to use Nazi Germany, of all places and times, as an example.

[Dusk_Kittens]

If you are a man (have a penis and XY chromosomes), you use the male bathroom. If you are a woman (have a vagina and XX chrosome), you use the female bathroom. Very, very simple. There is no need for politically correct bullshit like "gender-neutral bathrooms".

What if you have Klinefelter syndrome (XXY chromosomes)? What if you have CAH? What if you have MRKH? What if you have an enlarged clitoris which appears to be a penis? But then, I reckon you've never heard of any of these things, have you?

What if your brain is more like that of a heterosexual woman than that of a heterosexual man or a homosexual man, but you have XY chromosomes and a phallus? What if your brain is more like that of a heterosexual man than that of a heterosexual woman or a lesbian, but you have XX chromosomes and a vulva (yeah, that's the word you want, because a "vagina" is only a part of the vulva, and specifically not particularly visible, whereas the vulva is)?

Your model of "reality" is too small to hold what is actually reality.

[Freemopia]

*** Warned for trolling ***

These are my geniune beliefs. I accept the warning but I do not see how I was being a troll or any more offensive than any other posters in any way, I was simply expressing my views, which judging from the poll results are that of the majority.

Edit: Okay I understand: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=271241
If you find my opinion offensive to your beliefs you will just try to get me banned.

If I find someone’s opinion offensive to my beliefs, I will not try to get them banned.
I did not report anyone except mods, since I have been on nationstates. The mods locked my post before. Just today Nov 21, I came back to see that my post was unlocked.

[Dusk_Kittens]

Yes, and denying people the right to express themselves as they see fit, is going to have a negative consequence on a lot of those people.

Nobody is denying their rights to express themselves. Just don't expect to have special rules and permissions so you can use the wrong toilet. I can't do it, so you can't do it either.

Gender =/= sex. You've been here long enough to know that.

This theory is fundamentally false. Scientifically they are the exact same thing. The theory that gender and sex are separate was invented by left-wing professors just a few decades ago and is actually a philosophical question, not a scientific one. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation pressured professors around the world to accept this deranged concept as a fact in the 60s, and that's why the myth that gender and sex are separate is still taught as a fact.

Explain the findings discussed in the scholarly, peer-reviewed scientific and medical journal articles linked here by reference to "invention." Pay close attention to the images of physical differences in the brains prior to any use of hormones by reference to "invention."

[Dusk_Kittens]

I think the real issue here is that definition of transgender in the op. :/

You're right.

Trans-gender = someone that pretends to be a gender they were not born as (sometimes they mutilate their genitals and get plastic surgery).

I would like to see a source for that definition.

I tried to correct that several pages back, but apparently it didn't register ...

[Luveria]

You're right.



I would like to see a source for that definition.

I tried to correct that several pages back, but apparently it didn't register ...

I doubt the OP cares. Making transphobic OPs is kosher on this site.

[Immoren]

a philosophical question, not a scientific one.

There's difference?

[Grenartia]

I tried to correct that several pages back, but apparently it didn't register ...

I doubt the OP cares. Making transphobic OPs is kosher on this site.

Well, OP is on right now, and just responded. Lets see if OP takes the opportunity to refute the claim.

OP, the ball is in YOUR court here.

[Luveria]

I doubt the OP cares. Making transphobic OPs is kosher on this site.

Well, OP is on right now, and just responded. Lets see if OP takes the opportunity to refute the claim.

OP, the ball is in YOUR court here.

My money is on "OP continues to be transphobic because they feel good bashing on a minority with a suicide attempt rate of over 50%".

[Dusk_Kittens]

Well, OP is on right now, and just responded. Lets see if OP takes the opportunity to refute the claim.

OP, the ball is in YOUR court here.

My money is on "OP continues to be transphobic because they feel good bashing on a minority with a suicide attempt rate of over 50%".

Currently, it seems as if "ignore till it goes away" is the choice.

Don't let it go away. Call the OP on it until a reply is given.