gender-neutral bathroom mandate? poll

[Xyber NS]

Hardly. You're asking for equal rights? Women, if pregnant, have a right to stop being pregnant. Men, if pregnant, have a right to stop being pregnant. Seems pretty damn equal.

You want to force someone to get an unwanted medical procedure? Boys are really icky.

I never consented for pregnancy, I just consented for sex. I WANT MY DAMN SEMEN BACK. Isn't this the women's logic? "She just consented for sex, not for her ovaries to be hostage of the government and the misogynist laws"?

Same applies to me "I only consented for sex, and not for my semen to be hostage of the government, women and the misandrist laws"!

[Knowlandia]

This is a prime example of a non-issue.

[Lost heros]

This is a prime example of a non-issue.

How is this a non-issue?

[Linux and the X]

Hardly. You're asking for equal rights? Women, if pregnant, have a right to stop being pregnant. Men, if pregnant, have a right to stop being pregnant. Seems pretty damn equal.

You want to force someone to get an unwanted medical procedure? Boys are really icky.

I never consented for pregnancy, I just consented for sex. I WANT MY DAMN SEMEN BACK. Isn't this the women's logic? "She just consented for sex, not for her ovaries to be hostage of the government and the misogynist laws"?

Same applies to me "I only consented for sex, and not for my semen to be hostage of the government, women and the misandrist laws"!

You're fucking not pregnant, though. If you were pregnant, you would have a right to stop being pregnant, of course. But YOU'RE NOT FUCKING PREGNANT. I suppose you technically still have a right to stop being pregnant; it's just irrelevant because you are, once again, not pregnant.

[Soled]

Nah. Keep it the way it is, 1 for men and 1 for women.

[Lost heros]

Nah. Keep it the way it is, 1 for men and 1 for women.

Why?

[Xyber NS]

Conscription isn't just for men, and the all-caps is really annoying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg

I don't think so, only Israel and another couple of countries forces women to conscription(less time to do than men anyway), the other countries who have conscription force men only, ruining our lives, removing us the chance of education or a career during the most delicate phase of our lives, when we just become adults.

[Luveria]

Conscription isn't just for men, and the all-caps is really annoying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg

I don't think so, only Israel and another couple of countries forces women to conscription(less time to do than men anyway), the other countries who have conscription force men only, ruining our lives, removing us the chance of education or a career during the most delicate phase of our lives, when we just become adults.

And how is that related to gender-neutral bathrooms?

I will say again, go make a thread if you want to rant about gender inequality.

[Luveria]

It doesn't look that way.

Haven't I asked until know just that? Equal Obamacare, equal punishment for the same crime, equal parental rights, equal quotas?

That is not related to the thread topic.

OK, that's it, now I'm scared, I can't get it if you're retarded or just a troll, for really...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/29/pregnant-man-judge-reject_n_2979968.html

Thomas Beatie, known as "The Pregnant Man," was born Tracy Lehuanani Lagondino in Oahu, Hawaii. He began testosterone treatments in 1997 and underwent double mastectomy and chest reconstruction surgery in 2002. He changed his Hawaii driver's license to say he was a man and had a Hawaiian court approve his name change to Thomas.

If Thomas Beatie wants an abortion, he is allowed to, but I am not seeing how that is related to thread topic.

I know that the comment was offtopic but I had to answer to your weird claims.

Then stop posting false things like that men are not allowed to have abortions. When someone posts false information I have an obligation to correct it because it is potentially damaging to individuals affected by the spread of your false information such as transgender men.

I AM ASKING EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN, EQUAL TO THOSE THAT WOMEN ARE BEING GRANTED.

-SAME CRIME, SAME PUNISHMENT, NOT HIGHER FOR MEN.
-PREGNANCY, ASK EVEN THE MAN, NOT JUST THE WOMAN(BOTH MUST SAY YES TO KEEP THE BABY, OTHERWISE IT MUST BE ABORTION).
-RIGHT TO GIVE UP THE BABY(ORPHANAGE ETC.) FOR THE WOMAN, SAME RIGHT TO THE MAN, AND NOT JAIL TIME FOR REFUSING TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT.
-NOT HER BABY GENETICALLY, LETS FIX IT. SAME FOR MEN, NOT HIS BABY LETS FIX IT.
-QUOTAS IN THE AREAS WHEN WE'RE LACKING FOR WOMEN, LETS DO THE SAME IN THE AREAS WHEN WE'RE LACKING FOR MEN.
-EQUAL PAYMENT TO OBAMACARE, NOT HIGHER FOR MEN.
-EQUAL CONSCRIPTION, NOT JUST FOR MEN.
-EQUAL TREATMENT FOR MEN FROM OBAMACARE, NO SPECIAL STUFF FOR WOMEN ONLY.

Caps lock is cruise control for cool.

I hope you understand, because I'm seriously getting tired answering you.

Then stop answering me if you are finally done with the threadjacking.

Nah. Keep it the way it is, 1 for men and 1 for women.

What about individuals who do not identify as male or female or transgender people who are transitioning and do not feel comfortable using either restroom?

[Linux and the X]

Conscription isn't just for men, and the all-caps is really annoying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg

I don't think so, only Israel and another couple of countries forces women to conscription(less time to do than men anyway), the other countries who have conscription force men only, ruining our lives, removing us the chance of education or a career during the most delicate phase of our lives, when we just become adults.

Just today I've so far spoken to five people who, despite not being men, are required to register for the draft in the US. And it's not even noon on a Sunday.

[Ostroeuropa]

Xyber, this isn't the place.

[Jetan]

1) -SAME CRIME, SAME PUNISHMENT, NOT HIGHER FOR MEN.
2) -PREGNANCY, ASK EVEN THE MAN, NOT JUST THE WOMAN(BOTH MUST SAY YES TO KEEP THE BABY, OTHERWISE IT MUST BE ABORTION).
3) -RIGHT TO GIVE UP THE BABY(ORPHANAGE ETC.) FOR THE WOMAN, SAME RIGHT TO THE MAN, AND NOT JAIL TIME FOR REFUSING TO PAY CHILD SUPPORT.
4) -NOT HER BABY GENETICALLY, LETS FIX IT. SAME FOR MEN, NOT HIS BABY LETS FIX IT.
5) -QUOTAS IN THE AREAS WHEN WE'RE LACKING FOR WOMEN, LETS DO THE SAME IN THE AREAS WHEN WE'RE LACKING FOR MEN.
6) -EQUAL PAYMENT TO OBAMACARE, NOT HIGHER FOR MEN.
7) -EQUAL CONSCRIPTION, NOT JUST FOR MEN.
8 ) -EQUAL TREATMENT FOR MEN FROM OBAMACARE, NO SPECIAL STUFF FOR WOMEN ONLY.

1) Reasonable.
2) Ridicilous. Men can't get pregnant, and consequently don't have to carry the thing around for nine months and then birth it, so abortion or not is not our decision to make.
3) Sticky issue, child support is about the child, not the mother.
4) What does that even mean?
5) Better option would be to get rid of quotas completely and hire people based on merit instead.
6) Can't comment due to not knowing enough about Obamacare.
7) Silly idea IMHO, but you're welcome to it obviously.
8 ) Can't comment due to not knowing enough about Obamacare.

Conscription isn't just for men, and the all-caps is really annoying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rostker_v._Goldberg

I don't think so, only Israel and another couple of countries forces women to conscription(less time to do than men anyway), the other countries who have conscription force men only, ruining our lives, removing us the chance of education or a career during the most delicate phase of our lives, when we just become adults.

Funny that. My life was not ruined nor were my education or career options destroyed by doing my duty.

[Seriong]

Yo, Xyber, this isn't a feminism v antifeminism/MHRA thread. If you so desire one, they tend to be popular so either find an existing one, or start one.

Nah. Keep it the way it is, 1 for men and 1 for women.

Why?

I have a feeling that he's going to say that it's for one of a few reasons.
A) He's transphobic and will say "Why should we cater to mental disorders? Should we have a room covered in tinfoil for the paranoid too?"
B) He'll say it will create more problems "Men and Women are, due to our culture, uncomfortable sharing restrooms, and given that they are the vast majority, their comfort is more important that a minority that makes up a tiny percentage of the population"
C) He'll say it's a non-issue "Trans people can just use whatever they pass as, people aren't going to be peeking into your stalls anyway"
Those are the arguments I've seen that make any sense so far.

[Seriong]

4) What does that even mean?

I believe he's trying to talk about child support, meaning "If the mother of a child says that someone who is not the genetic parent of a child is the father, he still shouldn't have to pay, he should be able to force her to find the genetic parent" it is sometimes an issue, given that paternity tests are in some areas only able to be demanded by the mother. But again, this is not the place to discuss that issue, just trying to clear up what I think he's getting at.

[Luveria]

Yo, Xyber, this isn't a feminism v antifeminism/MHRA thread. If you so desire one, they tend to be popular so either find an existing one, or start one.

Why?

I have a feeling that he's going to say that it's for one of a few reasons.
A) He's transphobic and will say "Why should we cater to mental disorders? Should we have a room covered in tinfoil for the paranoid too?"
B) He'll say it will create more problems "Men and Women are, due to our culture, uncomfortable sharing restrooms, and given that they are the vast majority, their comfort is more important that a minority that makes up a tiny percentage of the population"
C) He'll say it's a non-issue "Trans people can just use whatever they pass as, people aren't going to be peeking into your stalls anyway"
Those are the arguments I've seen that make any sense so far.

In other words, we agree the only possible arguments are;

1) Transphobia, the "no one can change their gender despite gender being nothing more than a social self-identity construct" anti-scientific nonsense.

2) Sexism, the "men and women could not possibly be comfortable sharing a restroom together because... well... just because..." argument.

Or as you said;

3) "Transgender people can pass as the gender they identify as (except when they can't because they are transitioning) so what need is there for a third restroom?"

[Zottistan]

This is a prime example of a non-issue.

How is this a non-issue?

Cisgendered privilege.

Nah. Keep it the way it is, 1 for men and 1 for women.

Why cause unnecessary segregation and confusion?

[Seriong]

Yo, Xyber, this isn't a feminism v antifeminism/MHRA thread. If you so desire one, they tend to be popular so either find an existing one, or start one.

I have a feeling that he's going to say that it's for one of a few reasons.
A) He's transphobic and will say "Why should we cater to mental disorders? Should we have a room covered in tinfoil for the paranoid too?"
B) He'll say it will create more problems "Men and Women are, due to our culture, uncomfortable sharing restrooms, and given that they are the vast majority, their comfort is more important that a minority that makes up a tiny percentage of the population"
C) He'll say it's a non-issue "Trans people can just use whatever they pass as, people aren't going to be peeking into your stalls anyway"
Those are the arguments I've seen that make any sense so far.

In other words, we agree the only possible arguments are;

1) Transphobia, the "no one can change their gender despite gender being nothing more than a social self-identity construct" anti-scientific nonsense.

2) Sexism, the "men and women could not possibly be comfortable sharing a restroom together because... well... just because..." argument.

Or as you said;

3) "Transgender people can pass as the gender they identify as (except when they can't because they are transitioning) so what need is there for a third restroom?"

I would agree on the first, but disagree that the second is based in sexism. On the third, it's not so much that as "Transgender people look more like one of the two genders more than the other, and thus can pass as one of the two agreed upon genders, and can thus use the restroom they pass as" At no point is what they identify taken into account.

[Luveria]

In other words, we agree the only possible arguments are;

1) Transphobia, the "no one can change their gender despite gender being nothing more than a social self-identity construct" anti-scientific nonsense.

2) Sexism, the "men and women could not possibly be comfortable sharing a restroom together because... well... just because..." argument.

Or as you said;

3) "Transgender people can pass as the gender they identify as (except when they can't because they are transitioning) so what need is there for a third restroom?"

I would agree on the first, but disagree that the second is based in sexism. On the third, it's not so much that as "Transgender people look more like one of the two genders more than the other, and thus can pass as one of the two agreed upon genders, and can thus use the restroom they pass as" At no point is what they identify taken into account.

For the second, what is the fundamental difference between men and women that makes them incapable of sharing a unisex restroom, especially one with only stalls?

For the third, their argument also entirely disregards non-binary genders such as androgynous people.

[Seriong]

I would agree on the first, but disagree that the second is based in sexism. On the third, it's not so much that as "Transgender people look more like one of the two genders more than the other, and thus can pass as one of the two agreed upon genders, and can thus use the restroom they pass as" At no point is what they identify taken into account.

(2)For the second, what is the fundamental difference between men and women that makes them incapable of sharing a unisex restroom, especially one with only stalls?

(3)For the third, their argument also entirely disregards non-binary genders such as androgynous people.

2) It's a cultural issue, however using the word "Sexism" when read by people puts the statement in the same category as "Women don't deserve votes" "Men should be castrated"etc. This then dilutes the term more, in the same way that racism has done, when really the issue is just that in our cultural history we've always had segregated bathrooms, and these people see no benefit in changing it.
3) I suppose they would say that androgynous people would simply be seen as "Tomboyish" or if male "Effeminate"

[Luveria]

(2)For the second, what is the fundamental difference between men and women that makes them incapable of sharing a unisex restroom, especially one with only stalls?

(3)For the third, their argument also entirely disregards non-binary genders such as androgynous people.

2) It's a cultural issue, however using the word "Sexism" when read by people puts the statement in the same category as "Women don't deserve votes" "Men should be castrated"etc. This then dilutes the term more, in the same way that racism has done, when really the issue is just that in our cultural history we've always had segregated bathrooms, and these people see no benefit in changing it.

Not going by the definition of sexism.

sexism:

prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

It is a stereotype to assume two sexes are inherently incapable of sharing the same restroom.

3) I suppose they would say that androgynous people would simply be seen as "Tomboyish" or if male "Effeminate"

There are also genderless people, bigender people, etc.

[Seriong]

2) It's a cultural issue, however using the word "Sexism" when read by people puts the statement in the same category as "Women don't deserve votes" "Men should be castrated"etc. This then dilutes the term more, in the same way that racism has done, when really the issue is just that in our cultural history we've always had segregated bathrooms, and these people see no benefit in changing it.

Not going by the definition of sexism.

sexism:

prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

It is a stereotype to assume two sexes are inherently incapable of sharing the same restroom.

3) I suppose they would say that androgynous people would simply be seen as "Tomboyish" or if male "Effeminate"

There are also genderless people, bigender people, etc.

I can agree that it can be defined as sexism, I would hesitate however to call it sexism, as in a practical sense it will corrupt the discussion, and can easily be interpreted as trying to "Poison the well" aside from that it can simply dilute the term sexism, in the similar way that racism has come to the point where it's essentially worthless and meaningless to call something racist.
They would substitute what ever term you came up with, saying that regardless of what you identify as, you seem more like one or another, and thus fall under the term of "Tomboyish" or "Effeminate"

[Luveria]

Not going by the definition of sexism.



It is a stereotype to assume two sexes are inherently incapable of sharing the same restroom.



There are also genderless people, bigender people, etc.

I can agree that it can be defined as sexism, I would hesitate however to call it sexism, as in a practical sense it will corrupt the discussion, and can easily be interpreted as trying to "Poison the well" aside from that it can simply dilute the term sexism, in the similar way that racism has come to the point where it's essentially worthless and meaningless to call something racist.
They would substitute what ever term you came up with, saying that regardless of what you identify as, you seem more like one or another, and thus fall under the term of "Tomboyish" or "Effeminate"

I am merely using the term as per what it means. It is not my concern if someone believes it is corrupting the discussion by refusing to recognize an act of sexism as what is it by every dictionary definition.

[Laurasia]

I do not believe that a gender-neutral bathroom is practical. Considering that the pattern has always been for separate bathrooms for boys and girls (men and women), I don't see why we should change that. Transgender people generally identify as the other gender from what they are born, and they should be able to use the bathroom which they think best fits them.

[Seriong]

I am merely using the term as per what it means. It is not my concern if someone believes it is corrupting the discussion by refusing to recognize an act of sexism as what is it by every dictionary definition.

Do you not see the long term effect? Of making sexism apply to what is to most a very unimportant issue, such that when you bring up "Sexism in America" they are more apt to ignore you, as to them you aren't talking about important things?

[Laurasia]

I am merely using the term as per what it means. It is not my concern if someone believes it is corrupting the discussion by refusing to recognize an act of sexism as what is it by every dictionary definition.

Do you not see the long term effect? Of making sexism apply to what is to most a very unimportant issue, such that when you bring up "Sexism in America" they are more apt to ignore you, as to them you aren't talking about important things?

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. Could you clarify this?