gender-neutral bathroom mandate? poll

[Aurora Novus]

Ask yourself, truly ask yourself, why that should be concerning to the rational mind.

If you can't give me an answer, then obviously it's an irrational discomfort, which will go away with exposure. A non-issue.





Do you have any serious reason to think this will happen? Or are you just spouting whatever infalamtory nonsense you can come up with? Doubling the number of potential bodies in a room at a given time can only decrease sexual assault.

I completely understand why one might think that sharing bathrooms is a completely normal activity. However, the general consensus according to this very poll we are referring to, demon-straits an overwhelming majority of support towards my train of thought.

What the majority think is irrelevant to the question I posed.

I am, however, not claiming my train of thought to be the correct one, just the one that I have decided upon by myself by weighing it out in my own head. Just because I do not agree with your thought process, also does not mean I am wrong. It is THUS called, an opinion my good sir.

1) Opinions can be wrong.
2) Not all opinions are of equal merit. Opinions can be uninformed.
3) Your opinion is thus both uninformed, and wrong.

We are not on equal footing here. One of our cases is clearly backed by reason. Another by childish impulses. Care to guess which is which?

But on to what you said; In today's day and age if a man were to take a stroll into a woman's facility immediate flags would be raised.

Yes. But, that's not the question I asked. I asked you why it is, if we had shared bathrooms, it should be concerning to anyone that someone of the opposite sex walks in while you are using a toilet. Answer, if you will.

Allow me to branch off for a second and give you a well documented statistic;

"In the United States, someone is raped or sexually assaulted every two minutes" (Source Here)
So now that you know the statistic, take a peek at where many of these assaults happen, bathrooms.

First of all, sexual assault statistics are always hazy, so a random website isn't that impressive to me. More importantly though, your website says nothing about bathrooms. What it does say is that half of all incidents of rape take place in one's home, and the rapes almost always occur by someone you know.

Which, really, throws a huge wrench in your "random man rapes random woman in the bathroom" fantasy.

I am going to just point out that since you did refer to the bathroom as a common place to attend, why do so many of these tragic assaults happen within the restrooms themselves?

Because (1) they didn't, and (2) you've got the bathrooms segrgeated by sex. Let's suppose, just for a moment, there IS someone planning on jumping out and raping random men/women. By having sex-segregated rooms, you're putting these people more at risk. You're limiting the number of people who can enter a given room, an you're guarenteeing the rapist that their given victim type will almost undountably enter the room. You've only made it easier for the rapist to get what they want in such a scenario.

Pooling men and women together in the same room can only decrease sexual assault for that reason. Doubling the number of bodies in a room, as well as lessening the probability that a desired victim will walk through the door, will discourage bathrooms as a setting for rape overall.

Now, back to what I was saying;

Since an immediate flag is raised when John follows Susan into the restroom, it can be easily concluded that mixing the two restrooms to one, gender neutral restroom would lead to a rise in sexual assault cases.

1) No, it wouldn't. That's a fallacious jump in logic. What's the rational reason to expect that to occur? Why don't we expect that to occur when members of our own sex enter the same room as us? You've not made a connection at all between your statements. You're merely asserting one exists.

2) I didn't ask if an alarm was raised, I asked you if there is rational reason for such concern. Otherwise, it's an irrational concern. And one that will go way with exposure. A non-issue. And everything you've said here tonight indicates it is just that. An irrational concern.

NOW, I do understand that neutral single stall bathrooms do exist already. I have no problem with this because they are exactly that "single stall" bathrooms. Creating a whole new system of restrooms labeled 'YOU PICK!" or "Neutral" makes no sense to me due to the fact that you're either male, or you're female.

Being male or female has nothing to do with where you poop. Seperating the sexes like that has no basis in biology. And in fact, husbands and wives share bathrooms all the time. What, should men and women live in seperate housholds too? Should we just divide the planet as a whole in half? The male half and the female half? Jesus, what the hell has you so scared of the oppposite sex that you cling to this paranoid delusion?

[Rapidblaze]

1) Opinions can be wrong.
2) Not all opinions are of equal merit. Opinions can be uninformed.
3) Your opinion is thus both uninformed, and wrong.

We are not on equal footing here. One of our cases is clearly backed by reason. Another by childish impulses. Care to guess which is which?

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

[Dyakovo]

1) Opinions can be wrong.
2) Not all opinions are of equal merit. Opinions can be uninformed.
3) Your opinion is thus both uninformed, and wrong.

We are not on equal footing here. One of our cases is clearly backed by reason. Another by childish impulses. Care to guess which is which?

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

Wrong. Opinions most certainly can be factually incorrect and thus wrong.

[Rapidblaze]

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

Wrong. Opinions most certainly can be factually incorrect and thus wrong.

and therefore it is a fact, not an opinion. we can't use discussions like these as pure facts, because obviously there are both sides to an argument (although evidence can be factually incorrect, the point may still stand), unlike let's say, a maths question

[Aurora Novus]

1) Opinions can be wrong.
2) Not all opinions are of equal merit. Opinions can be uninformed.
3) Your opinion is thus both uninformed, and wrong.

We are not on equal footing here. One of our cases is clearly backed by reason. Another by childish impulses. Care to guess which is which?

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

If someone is of the opinion that the earth is flat, they are wrong. Period.

Opinions can very easily be shown to be false.

[Rapidblaze]

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

If someone is of the opinion that the earth is flat, they are wrong. Period.

Opinions can very easily be shown to be false.

Wrong. Opinions most certainly can be factually incorrect and thus wrong.

and therefore it is a fact, not an opinion. we can't use discussions like these as pure facts, because obviously there are both sides to an argument (although evidence can be factually incorrect, the point may still stand), unlike let's say, a maths question

or in this case, whether the Earth is flat or not. more open-ended questions like these cannot have a right or wrong.

[Tyriece]

we do not know if opinions can be right or wrong precisely because merit is entirely subjective, although they can be strengthened by evidence

Wrong. Opinions most certainly can be factually incorrect and thus wrong.

Opinions can not be wrong, however when they go against fact then they are just irrelevant. (Basic English, come on people)

[The Nihilistic view]

So back to the topic.........................


I'm keeping my urinals!

[Lost heros]

So back to the topic.........................


I'm keeping my urinals!

I don't see why some people are so obsessive over urinals. You can do the exact same business and more, in the same amount of time, with more privacy in a stall.

[Luveria]

So back to the topic.........................


I'm keeping my urinals!

I don't see why some people are so obsessive over urinals. You can do the exact same business and more, in the same amount of time, with more privacy in a stall.

Sexism. There are males who don't want to be reduced to the status of "women".

[The Nihilistic view]

Basically they (especially those huge long ones) are more efficient at getting people in and out of the toilet, they are a more efficient use of space. The reason why the men's queue is almost always shorter than the ladies. I don't want to have to waste as much time as they do at a big event waiting to use a cubical. That's it pure and simple, efficiency.

[The Nihilistic view]

I don't see why some people are so obsessive over urinals. You can do the exact same business and more, in the same amount of time, with more privacy in a stall.

Sexism. There are males who don't want to be reduced to the status of "women".

Do you ever have an argument other than strawman logical fallacy's and mild flamebaits?

[Lost heros]

Basically they (especially those huge long ones) are more efficient at getting people in and out of the toilet,

And stalls can't do this because...?

they are a more efficient use of space.

Urinals are only slightly smaller and perform only half the amount of tasks a stall, so no, urinals are not efficient.

The reason why the men's queue is almost always shorter than the ladies.

Source?

I don't want to have to waste as much time as they do at a big event waiting to use a cubical.

This assumes there will be a line.

That's it pure and simple, efficiency.

No it's not.

[Luveria]

Sexism. There are males who don't want to be reduced to the status of "women".

Do you ever have an argument other than strawman logical fallacy's and mild flamebaits?

Are you going to address my post or not? Are you denying that there are some males who do not want to use the same restroom as women due to sexist reasons such as wanting their own room for their own gender? Sexism is the main reason for opposition to gender-neutral restrooms being standard, as sexists will often want a restroom for their own gender.

There has already been this issue on US navy ships. The sailors were overwhelmingly in support of urinals being removed.

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20120709/NEWS/207090321/Gender-neutral-Ford-layout-nixes-urinals

Sailor reaction
Sailors contacted by Navy Times about the changes were largely optimistic. Unauthorized to speak on the subject, they spoke only on the condition of anonymity.

Several sailors were glad to hear urinals were going away, mainly because they're harder to clean than toilets and they easily break down. One less toilet fixture also means fewer parts to have to store.

Basically they (especially those huge long ones) are more efficient at getting people in and out of the toilet, they are a more efficient use of space. The reason why the men's queue is almost always shorter than the ladies. I don't want to have to waste as much time as they do at a big event waiting to use a cubical. That's it pure and simple, efficiency.

Your argument doesn't hold up. It's a difference of seconds to get out of a stall compared to backing away from a urinal.

If your responses to my posts are going to be baits against me and personal attacks which have nothing to do with the post in question, then don't bother replying.

[The Nihilistic view]

Do you ever have an argument other than strawman logical fallacy's and mild flamebaits?

Are you going to address my post or not? Are you denying that there are some males who do not want to use the same restroom as women due to sexist reasons such as wanting their own room for their own gender? Sexism is the main reason for opposition to gender-neutral restrooms being standard, as sexists will often want a restroom for their own gender.

There has already been this issue on US navy ships. The sailors were overwhelmingly in support of urinals being removed.

http://www.navytimes.com/article/20120709/NEWS/207090321/Gender-neutral-Ford-layout-nixes-urinals

Sailor reaction
Sailors contacted by Navy Times about the changes were largely optimistic. Unauthorized to speak on the subject, they spoke only on the condition of anonymity.

Several sailors were glad to hear urinals were going away, mainly because they're harder to clean than toilets and they easily break down. One less toilet fixture also means fewer parts to have to store.

Basically they (especially those huge long ones) are more efficient at getting people in and out of the toilet, they are a more efficient use of space. The reason why the men's queue is almost always shorter than the ladies. I don't want to have to waste as much time as they do at a big event waiting to use a cubical. That's it pure and simple, efficiency.

Your argument doesn't hold up. It's a difference of seconds to get out of stall compared to backing away from a urinal.

If your responses to my posts are going to be baits against me and personal attacks which have nothing to do with the post in question, then don't bother replying.

Yes, calls me sexist for liking urinals. Say's i'm baiting.

I never said anything about sexism and despite telling you my reasons, you post sarky comments, misconstrue my argument and don't ever actually answer my posts with a proper answer. "Your argument doesn't hold up" is not an argument in itself.

[Luveria]

Are you going to address my post or not? Are you denying that there are some males who do not want to use the same restroom as women due to sexist reasons such as wanting their own room for their own gender? Sexism is the main reason for opposition to gender-neutral restrooms being standard, as sexists will often want a restroom for their own gender.

There has already been this issue on US navy ships. The sailors were overwhelmingly in support of urinals being removed.





Your argument doesn't hold up. It's a difference of seconds to get out of stall compared to backing away from a urinal.

If your responses to my posts are going to be baits against me and personal attacks which have nothing to do with the post in question, then don't bother replying.

Yes, calls me sexist for liking urinals. Say's i'm baiting.

I never said anything about sexism and despite telling you my reasons, you post sarky comments, misconstrue my argument and don't ever actually answer my posts with a proper answer. "Your argument doesn't hold up" is not an argument in itself.

Now you're making up things. I haven't called you sexist for liking urinals and I have not called you a sexist. I was replying to Lost hero's question and gave one reason why some people are opposed to gender neutral restrooms.

I've provided a source that in the US Navy, responses to gender neutral restrooms are overwhelmingly positive. Your argument was efficiency. Surely efficiency would matter on a navy ship?

There are places where gender neutral restrooms have already been signed into law.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/LGBT-Gender-Neutral-Restrooms-206932591.html

When Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter signed legislation Thursday to afford equal rights to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people, he said he hoped Philadelphia would become “the most LGBT-friendly” city in the world.

One piece of that comprehensive legislation will forever alter the restroom options in city-owned buildings.

The legislation requires that new or renovated city-owned buildings include gender-neutral bathrooms in addition to traditional men's and women's restrooms.

The only places with exclusively gender neutral restrooms are navy ships. The trend is that gender-neutral restrooms are becoming the third restroom option, without removing male and female restrooms. The thread has been about having that third gender-neutral restroom. To be truly gender neutral it would require having only toilets and not urinals. I'm going to go out on a limb and say if someone absolutely insists on gender-neutral restrooms having urinals (which are not gender-neutral), then they are being anti-egalitarian and not truly in favour of a gender-neutral restroom.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Luveria, Nihilistic: The topic is not either of you, or your workable responses or lack thereof. Knock off the needling of one another, stick to the topic, and kindly refrain from comments that might be taken as personal jabs. Thank you.







Jebus. Whole reason for urinals is we all know plenty of men can't aim for shit anyways. Think of the custodians. Cleaning around toilets is no fun. Put up a thin divider wall like they have between stalls - best of both worlds, no more fuss. It isn't rocket science. /light-hearted ribbing of some of my fave peeps, those being da boyz.

[The Nihilistic view]

Luveria, Nihilistic: The topic is not either of you, or your workable responses or lack thereof. Knock off the needling of one another, stick to the topic, and kindly refrain from comments that might be taken as personal jabs. Thank you.







Jebus. Whole reason for urinals is we all know plenty of men can't aim for shit anyways. Think of the custodians. Cleaning around toilets is no fun. Put up a thin divider wall like they have between stalls - best of both worlds, no more fuss. It isn't rocket science. /light-hearted ribbing of some of my fave peeps, those being da boyz.

I can aim......Most of the time......When i'm not.......Drunk.

[Dusk_Kittens]

I've been told by guys that many guys choose to use the stalls to pee anyway, because they feel less comfortable using a urinal without dividers. I assume this has something to do with comparing sizes, although I have seldom been blunt enough to ask (and on those occasions when I have, the guys naturally denied that this was the reason ...).

[Norstal]

I've been told by guys that many guys choose to use the stalls to pee anyway, because they feel less comfortable using a urinal without dividers. I assume this has something to do with comparing sizes, although I have seldom been blunt enough to ask (and on those occasions when I have, the guys naturally denied that this was the reason ...).

No. It's just uncomfortable it's all, cause you can hear them breathe and stuff. Same when there's no divider in the urinal, so we have to skip a urinal by one space.

[The Nihilistic view]

I've been told by guys that many guys choose to use the stalls to pee anyway, because they feel less comfortable using a urinal without dividers. I assume this has something to do with comparing sizes, although I have seldom been blunt enough to ask (and on those occasions when I have, the guys naturally denied that this was the reason ...).

I don't have a problem with it but from what some people that do tell me it's more to do with being worried a Gay person may be looking at their willy. In my opinion I don't see the difference between a gay or a straight person seeing it now, through puberty and the insecurity when learning about sexuality it was a small worry of mine(I was about 13). It's not about size they just don't want the wrong people looking at it.

[Aurora Novus]

If someone is of the opinion that the earth is flat, they are wrong. Period.

Opinions can very easily be shown to be false.

and therefore it is a fact, not an opinion. we can't use discussions like these as pure facts, because obviously there are both sides to an argument (although evidence can be factually incorrect, the point may still stand), unlike let's say, a maths question

or in this case, whether the Earth is flat or not. more open-ended questions like these cannot have a right or wrong.

Who is to say whether a discussion is a discussion of known facts or not? For people living in the 12th Century, such questions would be "opinions". And they would still be incorrect.

"Opinion" is not synonymous with "subjective". It is synonymous with "belief" or "thought" or "viewpoint". People can believe in things which are not real, or are demonstratably false. It's called being delusional or misinformed.

Case in point: Everything that was said against the notion of gendered bathrooms by the member in questions was either misinformed or delusional. Thus, the opinion is wrong. Really, hiding behind the wall of "my opinion" doesn't shield you from critique. Stop pretending it does. Grow up if you're going to engage in adult conversation.

[Xyber NS]

Unisex bathrooms! Stop the gender segregation, stop the discrimination of the transsexuals!

[Luveria]

Unisex bathrooms! Stop the gender segregation, stop the discrimination of the transsexuals!

If only that attitude were more common.

[Akoz]

I think bathrooms should be used by physical sex, not gender.

This.

100% agreed