gender-neutral bathroom mandate? poll

[Marshill]

I think bathrooms should be used by physical sex, not gender.

The ones that can stand up while urinating uses the men's room the one that must sit down while urinating uses the women's room.

Well, what about the kind of man who sits down to pee?

We in Marshill are fairly broad-minded about calls of nature. But I think the principle should be one gender, or whatever, at a time...

True story: many, many years ago I was in a department store (Nordstrom's) and had to spend a penny. I walked into what I thought was the men's room, but right there by the sinks was a baby changing table! "Crikey, I've got in the ladies," I think, so I turn on my heels, march straight to the room across the hall, look up at the sign and see:

WOMEN

[Luveria]

The ones that can stand up while urinating uses the men's room the one that must sit down while urinating uses the women's room.

Well, what about the kind of man who sits down to pee?

It's more likely than you think.

We in Marshill are fairly broad-minded about calls of nature.

This thread is OOC.

[NERVUN]

We would suggest that you choke on thousands of spiders.

But still yeah, I suggest you jump off a cliff because you're no better than the bigots.

And I suggest that the BOTH of you settle down before we have to start swinging the ban hammers again.

That's not sarcasm btw.

[The Lone Alliance]

But still yeah, I suggest you jump off a cliff because you're no better than the bigots.

And I suggest that the BOTH of you settle down before we have to start swinging the ban hammers again.

That's not sarcasm btw.

Ah, sorry NERVUN, I'll make sure not to snip back at people next time.

[Aurora Novus]

Well, what about the kind of man who sits down to pee?

It's more likely than you think.

Indeed. I usually only stand if I'm in a hurry, otherwise I prefer to sit down.

[The Carlisle]

It's more likely than you think.

Indeed. I usually only stand if I'm in a hurry, otherwise I prefer to sit down.

Since the creation of the smartphone, sitting down to go has increased greatly.

[Lianhua (Ancient)]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

[Charzak]

Two genders based on your genitalia. Two bathrooms. Why fix it if it isn't broke? Never actually seen someone complain about two bathrooms in real life.

[Orham]

Two genders based on your genitalia.

Must we do this again? Must we?

Two bathrooms. Why fix it if it isn't broke?

For the intersexed and transgendered a lack of unisex bathrooms can lead to complications ranging from minor inconveniences to life-threatening situations. Now, a mandate requiring that all public edifices (or all public accommodations, for that matter) bear unisex bathrooms might not be the ideal solution, but let's not pretend there isn't a problem.

Never actually seen someone complain about two bathrooms in real life.

...and? Are you in the habit of only acknowledging problems if you have personally witnessed their effects? That's a bad habit, you should break it.

EDIT: Typo.

[Mushet]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

Why?

[Microsol]

I think bathrooms should be used by physical sex, not gender.

/thread

[Orham]

I think bathrooms should be used by physical sex, not gender.

/thread

No, not /thread. You haven't given the why of it yet.

[Dusk_Kittens]

We would suggest that you choke on thousands of spiders.

It's sarcasm, I realized you wouldn't get it so I edited.

someone pointed out earlier in thread that they couldn't understand how such people could exist, hence mythical.

If you're talking about what I posted, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand the use of "Asexual" as meaning "not being sexually attracted to anyone" (because, biologically speaking, "Asexual" pertains to a form of reproduction -- although I can see why the term would be borrowed and redirected in this context), and plainly stated that I wasn't denying the existence of such persons:

(snipped)

However, I should correct myself on the earlier post. I was using "Asexual" in the sense of those Intersex persons whose Gender Identities are neither male nor female (in which case, A-gender would probably be correct). I' do not understand the current phenomenon of people saying that they're "Asexual" because they're not sexually attracted to anyone. I'm not denying their situation; I'm just saying I don't understand it (but it seems from what I have been able to find out that they don't, as a general rule, have any particular desire or need to use gender-neutral restrooms).

This has nothing to do with gender, and that was part of what I was attempting to correct myself on from my previous post.

What I intended to convey was that I'm not very familiar with Asexual in this sense, and that I've been led to believe (by an admittedly brief bit of research on the net between the time I made the previous post and the time I made the post from which I've just quoted) that this usage of the term is a recent development. Among other things, a BBC article (published last month) pertaining to otaku culture in Japan touched on the subject, and was among the things I read during that brief bit of research; this article seemed fairly certain that the phenomenon was something new-ish (at least in Japan), these particular otaku preferring "virtual girlfriends" to actual sexual intercourse.

Hell, I only recently started using "LGBTI" instead of "LGBT" -- and I'm still trying to decide if I should instead use "LGBTQIA" or something less complex (like a suggestion made earlier, which I believe was in this thread, something like VRA [that wasn't it; I'm just trying to remember the acronym by virtue of the meaning, which was something like "Various Romantic Attractions"]). I don't believe I'll be using "QUILTBAG." It smells demeaning.

Disclaimer: I'm the B in the LGBTI, and no, it's not a phase (at my age? and having known this about myself for a few decades?) or attempt to get attention or any such thing. Having experienced and observed misunderstandings of Bisexuality often enough, I am certainly aware that people who don't have personal experience of a particular situation may not understand it and mischaracterize it (intentionally or unintentionally). So really, rather than Straw Man what I said, you should see I was admitting that I had limited grasp of the meaning of the term, and hinting that I would welcome further enlightenment.

[Dusk_Kittens]

Men go in the men's restroom, women go in the women's restroom, transsexuals can...flip a coin. Or they can go into the restroom for whichever one they physically look like.

That's usually what they do, simply because it's the easiest option and doesn't cause any problems.

Secondly, a transexual nearly always looks like the gender they identify as, because they are post-op, which is what transexual means...

I don't think that's what "Transsexual" (sic) means, or else there wouldn't be terms like "Pre-Op MtF TS," "Pre-Op FtM TS," "Non-Op FtM TS," and "Non-Op MtF TS."

"Transsexual" is a more specific term than "Transgender," which includes "Transsexual," but is not limited thereto (and I also know that this usage has not always been the case, but it seems to be the currently most popular usage, within the Trans* community itself, and among those medical and psych professionals who work with Trans* people):

Transgender is an umbrella term for persons whose gender identity, gender expression, or behavior does not conform to that typically associated with the sex to which they were assigned at birth. Gender identity refers to a person’s internal sense of being male, female, or something else; gender expression refers to the way a person communicates gender identity to others through behavior, clothing, hairstyles, voice, or body characteristics.

Source: American Psychological Association

The term transsexual refers to people whose gender identity is different from their assigned sex. Often, transsexual people alter or wish to alter their bodies through hormones, surgery, and other means to make their bodies as congruent as possible with their gender identities. This process of transition through medical intervention is often referred to as sex or gender reassignment, but more recently is also referred to as gender affirmation. People who were assigned female, but identify and live as male and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual men or transmen (also known as female-to-male or FTM). Conversely, people who were assigned male, but identify and live as female and alter or wish to alter their bodies through medical intervention to more closely resemble their gender identity are known as transsexual women or transwomen (also known as male-to-female or MTF). Some individuals who transition from one gender to another prefer to be referred to as a man or a woman, rather than as transgender.

Source: American Psychological Association

What else might fall under the "Transgender" umbrella term is a matter of debate. Wikipedia lists:
Transsexual
Transvestite or cross-dresser
Genderqueer
Androgyne
Bigender
Drag kings and queens

According to a couple of Trans* folk I know personally, grouping "Transvestite" together with "cross-dresser," as if the terms are interchangeable, is a mistake, because (according to these two people) they're not synonymous -- "Transvestite" has been excluded from the category of "Transgender" by them because they say that Transvestites have a sexual fetish which has little or nothing to do with Gender Identity or Gender Expression (although Wikipedia says "Transvestic Fetishism" is something else, and I myself have pointed out to these two that "Transvestite" literally means "Cross-Dressed").

Anyway, I would think this is a more reliable source than Wikipedia:
What are some categories or types of transgender people? at the American Psychlogical Association website.

While I admit to being fairly unfamiliar with the use of the term "Asexual" as meaning "not sexually attracted to anyone, regardless of sex and/or gender," I'm quite familiar with "Transgender" and "Transsexual" (I run an "LGBT" group at another site, by the way, and I was previously an officer in the group from its inception until I inherited the role of "group leader" as the officer with the most seniority after the founder of the group left to pursue other concerns elsewhere). I'm also aware that the two terms are not used in the same way by everyone, and that some Trans* persons may dislike one or the other term, or prefer one over the other, regardless of whether others would classify them by the less preferred term or not (and, while personal preference is real, standard usage of terms makes things a lot easier to understand, both for Trans* people themselves, and for others who would like to understand).

[Dyakovo]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

Why? Also, who's going to be checking people's genitals before they enter the restrooms?

[Dyakovo]

Two genders based on your genitalia.

Gender isn't based on genitalia.

[Lost heros]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

Because fuck transgenders.

[Undivulged Principles]

Many facilities in many countries already have these. They are generally called family rooms (they are officially for parents with infants but can serve the same purpose just as well). No need for a specialized room unless you just want to feel special.

[Vixia]

Gender only AND Gender Neutral, thats okay.

[AiliailiA]

Wow, 59 pages and I missed it? This is one of my favorite topics!

I must be getting a life ...

[Grenartia]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

That actively harms transgender people. This man shouldn't be told to use the women's room.

1. Two genders based on your genitalia. 2. Two bathrooms. 3. Why fix it if it isn't broke? 4. Never actually seen someone complain about two bathrooms in real life.

1. Except there's more than two genders, and gender isn't based on sex.
2. And there's a need for more than two bathrooms.
3. The current system is very much broke, and needs fixing.
4. Doesn't mean we don't exist.

[Luveria]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

Why do you want to force these men to use the women's restroom?

I thought you were better than that, but no, you care more about what genitalia someone has than their gender and appearance.

[AiliailiA]

How does anyone think two separate bathrooms is an efficient way of providing bathrooms?

It's inefficient! Imagine if we provided elevators and staircases on the same basis. Imagine if we provided cafeterias or public telephones or wireless access points on that basis.

Why divide the population into two classes of roughly equal numbers, and provide equal facilities for both? It's simply inefficient, inevitably leaving some people waiting for a resource which is unused at that time in the "other" facility.

It's wasteful, and I think based in the convergence of two taboos: a taboo on sex and a taboo on excretory functions. Whether or not those taboos have any rational basis, their convergence is not rational at all. Whatever differences there may be in how men and women excrete and wash up, they are trivial and have nothing to do with sexual intercourse.

[Luveria]

Bathrooms/restrooms should be segregated based on what genitals you have.

That actively harms transgender people. This man shouldn't be told to use the women's room.

For the new system Lianhua proposed, lets have one restroom door with a penis on it, and the other with a vagina. That means FtMs use the vagina restroom until they get a penis, and MtFs use the penis restroom until they have had SRS. Intersex people can go into whichever restroom they want. People who have lost their genitalia aren't allowed to use any restroom. It will be enforced by having a genitalia inspector at the restroom entrance to have a look at everyone's genitalia before they can go in. Children will not be exempt from genitalia inspections.

What about the transgender females who don't ever want SRS, and thus will be forever forced to go into the men's restroom to get harassed by every man inside who will know the person is a transgender woman since the genitalia inspector forced them to use the men's room? As usual, these proposals of grouping people by their genitalia are nothing more than a less-than-subtle way to remind transgender people how hated they are.

[Dyakovo]

Many facilities in many countries already have these. They are generally called family rooms (they are officially for parents with infants but can serve the same purpose just as well). No need for a specialized room unless you just want to feel special.

No-one is asking for specialized rooms. Gender neutral=/=trans-specific.