Things that are democracies

[Seperates]

I consider the ability for politicians to alter the district map in a closed room as anti-democratic in nature. If it was a non-partisan committee I would have no qualms about it, but the gerrymandered district in the state level of 2000 alters the Congressional map for 2020 assuming the state has no term limits in the state house and senate.

We do need to control gerrymandering and adopt a more representative system.

Agreed completely.

[Geilinor]

I consider the ability for politicians to alter the district map in a closed room as anti-democratic in nature. If it was a non-partisan committee I would have no qualms about it, but the gerrymandered district in the state level of 2000 alters the Congressional map for 2020 assuming the state has no term limits in the state house and senate.

But it doesn't matter, no matter how corrupt it is, you have the power the help put a person in power, so it is a democracy. A badly done democracy, but a democracy none the less.

This^. Russia, though an authoritarian state, is still a democracy, just a terribly flawed one.

[The Serbian Empire]

Why are so many people calling direct democracy "real democracy"? Representative democracy is quite real.

I consider a proportional representation to be the purest form of Democracy myself. The Winner-Takes All model is the exact opposite of Democracy for everyone and merely Democracy of the most vocal plurality who may not even garner 30% of the voting age population's votes.

[Valendia]

Why are so many people calling direct democracy "real democracy"? Representative democracy is quite real.

I consider a proportional representation to be the purest form of Democracy myself. The Winner-Takes All model is the exact opposite of Democracy for everyone and merely Democracy of the most vocal plurality who may not even garner 30% of the voting age population's votes.

There is a middle ground between Winner Take All and Proportional. Preferential Voting.

[Geilinor]

Why are so many people calling direct democracy "real democracy"? Representative democracy is quite real.

I consider a proportional representation to be the purest form of Democracy myself. The Winner-Takes All model is the exact opposite of Democracy for everyone and merely Democracy of the most vocal plurality who may not even garner 30% of the voting age population's votes.

I agree with that. The two party system is not inherently desirable as many seem to believe.

[The Serbian Empire]

I consider a proportional representation to be the purest form of Democracy myself. The Winner-Takes All model is the exact opposite of Democracy for everyone and merely Democracy of the most vocal plurality who may not even garner 30% of the voting age population's votes.

There is a middle ground between Winner Take All and Proportional. Preferential Voting.

It's also harder to keep track of everything without multi-round elections that reduce the field or more polling assistance in each polling area.

[The Truth and Light]

Can you, like, extrapolate?

The Athenians, for instance, believed that women were pretty much subhuman, that slavery was perfectly alright and that poor people shouldn't have the right to vote.

And yet they were, by most estimates, a democratic society, and one that intensely valued that trait.

What an utterly bizarre array of cultural norms to describe as "democratic."

[Forster Keys]

Just coz it's a democracy doesn't mean it's good.

Can you, like, extrapolate?

Democratic Athens was like hella bad. Like they didn't even have like electoral and/or political rights for like women and slaves and stuff. The current liberal democratic paradigm is like totally flawed right now, but if the Athenians came and saw our democracy today they'd be like "that's hella cray". It's like all subjective yah?

[The Truth and Light]

Can you, like, extrapolate?

Democratic Athens was like hella bad. Like they didn't even have like electoral and/or political rights for like women and slaves and stuff. The current liberal democratic paradigm is like totally flawed right now, but if the Athenians came and saw our democracy today they'd be like "that's hella cray". It's like all subjective yah?

Whoa, I could talk politics with you for hours, man.

[Geilinor]

Can you, like, extrapolate?

Like they didn't even have like electoral and/or political rights for like women and slaves and stuff.

Basically the US for most of its history.

[The Serbian Empire]

The Athenians, for instance, believed that women were pretty much subhuman, that slavery was perfectly alright and that poor people shouldn't have the right to vote.

And yet they were, by most estimates, a democratic society, and one that intensely valued that trait.

What an utterly bizarre array of cultural norms to describe as "democratic."

Indeed, it resembles the one of the US founding fathers come to think of it.

[Avenio]

The Athenians, for instance, believed that women were pretty much subhuman, that slavery was perfectly alright and that poor people shouldn't have the right to vote.

And yet they were, by most estimates, a democratic society, and one that intensely valued that trait.

What an utterly bizarre array of cultural norms to describe as "democratic."

Yep. Hence why it's a bit strange to call the Athenian democracy 'more democratic' than ours or as being 'an actual democracy', since, well, by every definition but a bunch of 2000-year-old dead Hellenes', it pretty much is demonstrably more just, inclusive and better fitting the definition of the word than what the Athenians had.

[The Truth and Light]

What an utterly bizarre array of cultural norms to describe as "democratic."

Indeed, it resembles the one of the US founding fathers come to think of it.

Dismal, truly dismal that all of the "best" examples of democracy throughout history are only half assed.

[Avenio]

Indeed, it resembles the one of the US founding fathers come to think of it.

The US' Founding Fathers liked the Roman Republic a lot too, and the Republic was basically the Mediterranean blend of Athenian democracy taken to its natural conclusion. Lots of focus on the citizen-farmer-statesman, only landowners got the vote, legislative body called a Senate, etc etc.

[Siaos]

Indeed, it resembles the one of the US founding fathers come to think of it.

Dismal, truly dismal that all of the "best" examples of democracy throughout history are only half assed.

Well, to be fair to the founding fathers, US was a prototype of representative democracy, they couldn't possibly have thought of half the issues which came with the form of democracy they created. The problem is that people are too reluctant to change the system like the founding fathers did, in fear of losing the democracy. The politicians play off these fears to their party's benefit and nothing gets done.

[The Serbian Empire]

Indeed, it resembles the one of the US founding fathers come to think of it.

Dismal, truly dismal that all of the "best" examples of democracy throughout history are only half assed.

In fact, I consider the one in the US to still be that way. It still has the archaic bicameral first-past-the-post system with a separate executive branch that hasn't been attempted by anyone else since for good reason. It's about as about as lethargic as a Snorlax after eating a Thanksgiving dinner without bipartisanship. Snorlax will do little more than sleep.

[Threlizdun]

Democracy is government by the people. That is the literal definition, and the application of the term is only appropriate for a system in which the people rule. The ability to vote does not in and of itself make a democracy.

[Forster Keys]

Democratic Athens was like hella bad. Like they didn't even have like electoral and/or political rights for like women and slaves and stuff. The current liberal democratic paradigm is like totally flawed right now, but if the Athenians came and saw our democracy today they'd be like "that's hella cray". It's like all subjective yah?

Whoa, I could talk politics with you for hours, man.

We've done it before.

[Forster Keys]

Like they didn't even have like electoral and/or political rights for like women and slaves and stuff.

Basically the US for most of its history.

Quite so.

[Mushet]

Some people don't seem to understand that democratic representative Republics exist, and are democracies. The only real requirement for a democracy is that a certain group of citizens vote on laws/representatives which vote on laws. This group can be as small as land-owning white males inside a small town in North Dakota or as large as everyone on Earth, but they are all democracies.

So Imperial Japan was democratic because of the Imperial Diet?

[Forster Keys]

Some people don't seem to understand that democratic representative Republics exist, and are democracies. The only real requirement for a democracy is that a certain group of citizens vote on laws/representatives which vote on laws. This group can be as small as land-owning white males inside a small town in North Dakota or as large as everyone on Earth, but they are all democracies.

So Imperial Japan was democratic because of the Imperial Diet?

Root vegetables and legumes are proven to promote and enhance democracy.

[Maurepas]

It's pretty simple. When I see this paraded around it's usually so the "Republicans" can try to "one-up" the "Democrats" on a name basis without making any points. As if if they can dictate the terms "Republic" and "Democracy" it counts as a win.

But in reality, a Republic is simply a government without a hereditary ruler. The Soviet Union was a Republic(well, a group of Republics), China is a Republic, etc.

This doesn't mean that one can't be a Democracy and a Republic, or a Democracy and not a Republic(the UK, for example), or any other combination in between, the terms are not antithetical.

The US is a Republic and a Representative Democracy. A democratic system where the people are represented by representatives, hence the term.

[Cetacea]

The US is a plutocracy, and due to the electoral college popular vote is nothing but pageantry.

Representative democracy might be the easiest way for nation-states to facilitate democracy but the US isn't one and really the 2 party plutocracy systems is no different to single party systems.

[GCMG]

What an utterly bizarre array of cultural norms to describe as "democratic."

Yep. Hence why it's a bit strange to call the Athenian democracy 'more democratic' than ours or as being 'an actual democracy', since, well, by every definition but a bunch of 2000-year-old dead Hellenes', it pretty much is demonstrably more just, inclusive and better fitting the definition of the word than what the Athenians had.

Are you sure about that poor people not having the right to vote? Because they actually took measures against the practical exclusions of not being able to leave work by paying people to attend assemblies (earlier they tried rounding them up, or maybe this happened at the same time). This would be from what we did in school but yeah (I think this largely proves what I have said, I may have got the jury thing confused with this though).

Athens is every bit as democratic as the US. Every single citizen had the right to vote. It just so happens that their idea of "citizen" was much more stringent than the US (which is a democracy, albeit a deeply flawed one). So, not really. But technically yes.

[Avenio]

Are you sure about that poor people not having the right to vote? Because they actually took measures against the practical exclusions of not being able to leave work by paying people to attend assemblies (earlier they tried rounding them up, or maybe this happened at the same time). This would be from what we did in school but yeah (I think this largely proves what I have said, I may have got the jury thing confused with this though).

They had the right to vote in some things, but not others. Athens' constitution, as devised by Solon, was purposefully timocratic - political enfranchisement was based upon one's ability to produce food on the property they owned; the three topmost classes in Athens were gradations of that production. ie the topmost class was composed of people that could produce 500 or more bushels of food per year, the second highest was 300-500 and so on. The lowest class, the thetes, were composed of everyone who didn't own land - which generally meant free peasant laborers that worked for food and shelter in a sort of pseudo-serfdom. The thetes could vote in the popular assemblies, but in practice it was very difficult for them to do so; the poor didn't generally have the time or resources to spend whole days arguing in a citizen's assembly, regardless of the pay offered. And, of course, the thetes were excluded from every other democratic body in Athens, like the Council of Four Hundred or the law courts or the magistracies.

Athens is every bit as democratic as the US. Every single citizen had the right to vote. It just so happens that their idea of "citizen" was much more stringent than the US (which is a democracy, albeit a deeply flawed one). So, not really. But technically yes.

Athens most certainly was not just as democratic as the US, by just about any measure. Saying that they were democratic, they just restricted their definition of 'citizen' more is a massive cop-out and is quite frankly insulting to the people in the US that fought for universal suffrage and the underclasses of Athens who had no say in the political process whatsoever.