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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:06 pm

Uiiop wrote:
Condunum wrote:You tell me where the fuck you can get a jar of chicken fingers right now or so help me god I will make breathing illegal.

In the sane place I got the discs of popcorn. The place in the imagination when the normal bag of popcorn gets boring.

THIS IS NOT SUFFICIENT PREPARE FOR LEGALLY ENFORCES SUFFOCATION.
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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:06 pm

Menassa wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
It does indeed matter if they commit sin!
Everyone (except for Our Lady and Our Lord) was born in a state of original sin, the fallen nature of man which leads us toward sin.
Beyond original sin, there is also actual sin, the commission of sinful acts, which cause grave damage to a person's soul.

How can it? Regardless of how many sins a person commits, if they are not saved it does not matter, and if they are saved... they are saved!


Salvation is not a transaction, it is a state of being.
All too often Christians approach salvation as a product God possesses and is willing to provide in exchange for some act of piety, and once possessed remains in their possession without work on their part.
This is the wrong way of thinking of salvation.
We need salvation because we are mired in our sins, because we are the kind of people who, of our own volition, do not choose God. Each actual sin further corrupts our being and reinforces sinful habits, which leads us to commit sinful actions again, in a viscious circle.
The salvation of Christ is the freeing of this state of being, of making us into the type of person God would have us be, the type that consciously and freely chooses God over all other matters.
Every sin we commit takes us farther from this state of being. Every sin we successfully fight and every virtue we act to appropriate brings us closer to this state of being.
Our salvation comes in the freeing of ourselves from the world such that we can, through the continued grace of God and our constant, intentional effort, become the type of persons God would have us be, the kind of people capable of experiencing God in His glory without being destroyed by Him.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:07 pm

Resora wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Neither disemboweling a practicing sodomite nor stoning a non-virgin bride are teachings of Christianity. Indeed, both would be sinful.


You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.


Moses was not a Christian.
Last edited by The Tovian Way on Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:08 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Resora wrote:
You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.


Moses was not a Christian.

Homosexuality is stated a sin in The Law, no?
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Arcadonisia
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Postby Arcadonisia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:08 pm

Resora wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Neither disemboweling a practicing sodomite nor stoning a non-virgin bride are teachings of Christianity. Indeed, both would be sinful.


You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.

Good old Mosey, Deuteronomy 22:20 and 21 wrote:If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young [bride]’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.


Though yes, you technically are correct. Stoning, not disembowelment, is the proscribed sanction for having gay sex.



Hmm..I always thought that the old laws were abolished when Jesus came..Besides the Bible says nothing about homosexuality anyways.
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Menassa
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Postby Menassa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:09 pm

Arcadonisia wrote:
Resora wrote:
You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.



Though yes, you technically are correct. Stoning, not disembowelment, is the proscribed sanction for having gay sex.



Hmm..I always thought that the old laws were abolished when Jesus came..Besides the Bible says nothing about homosexuality anyways.

Yes it does?
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"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

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Resora
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:09 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Resora wrote:
You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.


Moses was not a Christian.


He acted as commanded directly by God, and God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Unless you're arguing that God is a fickle ass that thought stoning brides was justified in the BC but not the AD.
The history of progress is written in the blood of men and women who have dared to espouse an unpopular cause.

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Arcadonisia
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Postby Arcadonisia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:10 pm

Menassa wrote:
Arcadonisia wrote:

Hmm..I always thought that the old laws were abolished when Jesus came..Besides the Bible says nothing about homosexuality anyways.

Yes it does?


:eyebrow: Really? Do tell.
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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:11 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:Sexual orientation is largely outside of our control, and thus cannot result in moral culpability.
Our actions are within our control, and thus can result in moral culpability.
Those with a tendency toward sinful actions, such as those born with a homosexual orientation, are never morally culpable for this tendency, but are morally culpable for actually engaging in these actions. One with a homosexual orientation who did not ever engage in homosexual sexual activity would be completely blameless as regards this particular sin.

In other words, forcible celibacy under threat of eternal damnation? Unnatural lifestyle in the name of an unnatural fear?[/quote]

It is not forced. If it were forced, it would have no moral value. It must be chosen, that is, one must learn to value God more than they value the expression of their sexuality. It may indeed be difficult, and my heart goes out to those who are in such a position, but that is the state of things. It is no different for any other fallen human being subject to a natural tendency to a sinful act; we are all called to learn how to deny our tendencies toward some particular act and to value God more.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:11 pm

Arcadonisia wrote:
Menassa wrote:Yes it does?


:eyebrow: Really? Do tell.

*sigh* It doesn't matter how you argue it. It doesn't matter if the translation is wrong. The fact that it is in the bible for certain very large denominations of Christianity means it's in the bible.
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Resora
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:11 pm

Arcadonisia wrote:
Resora wrote:
You might want to tell that to ol' Moses.



Though yes, you technically are correct. Stoning, not disembowelment, is the proscribed sanction for having gay sex.



Hmm..I always thought that the old laws were abolished when Jesus came..Besides the Bible says nothing about homosexuality anyways.


Leviticus 20:13 wrote:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Sure, a lot of Christians argue that these old laws were "nailed" to the Cross. That doesn't change the fact that the supposedly benevolent, omniscient God commanded this shit in the first place. You don't really get a do-over for that shit, especially if you're supposed to know everything.
The history of progress is written in the blood of men and women who have dared to espouse an unpopular cause.

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Intaglio
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Postby Intaglio » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:12 pm

:eyebrow: Why do people like this exist? I'm grown so bored of the obsession over gay marriage some people have
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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:13 pm

Intaglio wrote::eyebrow: Why do people like this exist? I'm grown so bored of the obsession over gay marriage some people have

You won't understand the problem with gay marriage until you think about it as much as I do. *nod*
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:14 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:It is not forced. If it were forced, it would have no moral value. It must be chosen, that is, one must learn to value God more than they value the expression of their sexuality.

Value a deity, one that tells us that our perfectly natural actions and inclinations are wrong, more than our loved ones on Earth?

The Tovian Way wrote:It may indeed be difficult, and my heart goes out to those who are in such a position, but that is the state of things. It is no different for any other fallen human being subject to a natural tendency to a sinful act; we are all called to learn how to deny our tendencies toward some particular act and to value God more.

Value god more than the natural inclinations he knowingly gives us? Okay...
be gay do crime


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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:14 pm

Resora wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Moses was not a Christian.


He acted as commanded directly by God, and God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Unless you're arguing that God is a fickle ass that thought stoning brides was justified in the BC but not the AD.


God is indeed the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
Humanity is not the same, however, and since humanity is changeable, God's interaction with us is as well.
God's moral law is involate, and has been laid down from the beginning. Not one jot or tittle shall ever pass away.
God's dietary and social laws for the Jewish people are formational in nature, and have served their purpose now that we are under the New Covenant.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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Magna Libero
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Postby Magna Libero » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:15 pm

I don't actually care so much as long as it doesn't affect me. Although, I'm not sure if the Bible is against or for banning something, because it is a sin. The sin part is also disputable, but I think it's against God. I wouldn't, however, like to be a member of a Church that advocates making sins, e.g. marrying gays etc.
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Arcadonisia
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Postby Arcadonisia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:15 pm

Resora wrote:
Arcadonisia wrote:

Hmm..I always thought that the old laws were abolished when Jesus came..Besides the Bible says nothing about homosexuality anyways.


Leviticus 20:13 wrote:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.


Sure, a lot of Christians argue that these old laws were "nailed" to the Cross. That doesn't change the fact that the supposedly benevolent, omniscient God commanded this shit in the first place. You don't really get a do-over for that shit, especially if you're supposed to know everything.


Eh. I always believe that the Bible was written and influenced by Man, even if God inspired Man to write it, but whatever. People will believe what that choose to believe.
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TBA Field Marshal
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Postby TBA Field Marshal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:15 pm

They have the right to have rallies and public meetings, just like every other group does.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:15 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Resora wrote:
He acted as commanded directly by God, and God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Unless you're arguing that God is a fickle ass that thought stoning brides was justified in the BC but not the AD.


God is indeed the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
Humanity is not the same, however, and since humanity is changeable, God's interaction with us is as well.
God's moral law is involate, and has been laid down from the beginning. Not one jot or tittle shall ever pass away.
God's dietary and social laws for the Jewish people are formational in nature, and have served their purpose now that we are under the New Covenant.

Does that mean homosexuality is no longer a sin?
be gay do crime


I am:
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Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Graknopia
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Postby Graknopia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:17 pm

Last time I checked Levicus says not to where polyester aswell.. so.
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Haflin
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Postby Haflin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:17 pm

I would have to say being intolerant of the intolerant leads to intolerance and then violence. They should be allowed to do what they please with their ideas. Even if its generaly unsupported.

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Resora
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:18 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Resora wrote:
He acted as commanded directly by God, and God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Unless you're arguing that God is a fickle ass that thought stoning brides was justified in the BC but not the AD.


God is indeed the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
Humanity is not the same, however, and since humanity is changeable, God's interaction with us is as well.
God's moral law is involate, and has been laid down from the beginning. Not one jot or tittle shall ever pass away.
God's dietary and social laws for the Jewish people are formational in nature, and have served their purpose now that we are under the New Covenant.

I'm curious as to what possible reason this all-knowing, totally not an asshole God could have had to proscribe the death penalty for being gay.

And why he decided it was worth putting something like this in writing, where it would be absorbed into the holy writings of future religions, when he obviously must have known it would cause untold misery via what you're arguing is a misunderstanding for almost two thousand years.
The history of progress is written in the blood of men and women who have dared to espouse an unpopular cause.

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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:18 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:It is not forced. If it were forced, it would have no moral value. It must be chosen, that is, one must learn to value God more than they value the expression of their sexuality.

Value a deity, one that tells us that our perfectly natural actions and inclinations are wrong, more than our loved ones on Earth?

The Tovian Way wrote:It may indeed be difficult, and my heart goes out to those who are in such a position, but that is the state of things. It is no different for any other fallen human being subject to a natural tendency to a sinful act; we are all called to learn how to deny our tendencies toward some particular act and to value God more.

Value god more than the natural inclinations he knowingly gives us? Okay...


Yes, we must learn to value God more than our "perfectly natural" actions, because nature is not synonymous with morality in a fallen world. We are called to value God more than our desires, more than our loved ones, more than our very lives.
Yes, we must value God more than our natural inclinations. God, it must be noted, has not given anyone an inclination to sin - He does not desire anyone to sin. However, due to the fallen nature of creation, brought about by the sinful choices of free moral agents, we are not born perfect as He would have us, but with all manner of ailments and disorders, which include, unfortunately, the natural tendency toward sinful actions.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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New Frenco Empire
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Postby New Frenco Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:20 pm

Graknopia wrote:Last time I checked Levicus says not to where polyester aswell.. so.

Or take advantage of the oh-so-modern technology that is crop rotation.
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Magna Libero
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Postby Magna Libero » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:20 pm

Haflin wrote:I would have to say being intolerant of the intolerant leads to intolerance and then violence. They should be allowed to do what they please with their ideas. Even if its generaly unsupported.

Exactly. No McCarthyism or anything here, please.
hi

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