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Top Anti-Gay Group Attempts Public Meeting Over LGBT Rights

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Jormengand
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Postby Jormengand » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:20 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Liriena wrote:Value a deity, one that tells us that our perfectly natural actions and inclinations are wrong, more than our loved ones on Earth?


Value god more than the natural inclinations he knowingly gives us? Okay...


Yes, we must learn to value God more than our "perfectly natural" actions, because nature is not synonymous with morality in a fallen world. We are called to value God more than our desires, more than our loved ones, more than our very lives.
Yes, we must value God more than our natural inclinations. God, it must be noted, has not given anyone an inclination to sin - He does not desire anyone to sin. However, due to the fallen nature of creation, brought about by the sinful choices of free moral agents, we are not born perfect as He would have us, but with all manner of ailments and disorders, which include, unfortunately, the natural tendency toward sinful actions.

Tell me, why is homosexuality a sin?
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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:21 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
God is indeed the same, yesterday, today, and forever.
Humanity is not the same, however, and since humanity is changeable, God's interaction with us is as well.
God's moral law is involate, and has been laid down from the beginning. Not one jot or tittle shall ever pass away.
God's dietary and social laws for the Jewish people are formational in nature, and have served their purpose now that we are under the New Covenant.

Does that mean homosexuality is no longer a sin?


Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:22 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Liriena wrote:Value a deity, one that tells us that our perfectly natural actions and inclinations are wrong, more than our loved ones on Earth?


Value god more than the natural inclinations he knowingly gives us? Okay...


Yes, we must learn to value God more than our "perfectly natural" actions, because nature is not synonymous with morality in a fallen world.

That makes absolutely no sense if the god in question is omniscient, omnipotent and an interventionist.

The Tovian Way wrote:We are called to value God more than our desires, more than our loved ones, more than our very lives.

That's awfully narcissistic.

The Tovian Way wrote:Yes, we must value God more than our natural inclinations. God, it must be noted, has not given anyone an inclination to sin - He does not desire anyone to sin.

Yet he enables said inclinations, does he not?

The Tovian Way wrote:However, due to the fallen nature of creation, brought about by the sinful choices of free moral agents, we are not born perfect as He would have us, but with all manner of ailments and disorders, which include, unfortunately, the natural tendency toward sinful actions.

So, in other words, god knowingly allows his own creation to be twisted through the natural laws he himself created, and then dares to demand that we take responsibility and clean his mess?
be gay do crime


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Lithosano
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Postby Lithosano » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:23 pm

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:24 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Liriena wrote:Does that mean homosexuality is no longer a sin?


Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.

Where is it said that homosexual sex acts are sinful?

If christians cannot punish homosexual sex acts through death, why do they see fit to do so by denying LGBT people their human rights, thus causing much anguish?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Caecuser
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Founded: Jul 01, 2012
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Postby Caecuser » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:24 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Liriena wrote:Does that mean homosexuality is no longer a sin?


Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.


This viewpoint of one sexuality being completely legitimate and the other being heinous is odd to me. There is functionally no difference between the two when they are used for pleasure (despite basic anatomical differences, they are essentially the same thing; sexual acts) and heterosexual sex can be performed without the intention or requirement of creating new life.

There just doesn't seem to be any reason to make one morally illegal and the other be fine. Especially considering both are consensual (when they are actually consensual).

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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:25 pm

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TBA Field Marshal
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Postby TBA Field Marshal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:26 pm



Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.

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Jormengand
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Postby Jormengand » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:26 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Liriena wrote:Does that mean homosexuality is no longer a sin?


Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.

Why are these acts sinful?
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Caecuser
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Postby Caecuser » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:28 pm

TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:Bravo, Senator, bravo. :clap:


Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.


My personal belief is that some things are too important to be left up to democracy and the masses to approve of.

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Resora
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:28 pm


WCF wrote:Obviously Senator Kirk doesn’t care about families and children and freedom and has chosen to side with the policies of decline, death and disease promoted by the Sexual Radicals.


Damn, Sexual Radicals makes it sound awesome.
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Jormengand
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Founded: May 22, 2010
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Postby Jormengand » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 pm

Resora wrote:

WCF wrote:Obviously Senator Kirk doesn’t care about families and children and freedom and has chosen to side with the policies of decline, death and disease promoted by the Sexual Radicals.


Damn, Sexual Radicals makes it sound awesome.

Makes it sound kinky, but there we go.
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Wisconsin9
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 pm

TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:Bravo, Senator, bravo. :clap:


Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.

This wasn't a rally, though. They can go spread their hate somewhere else if they want, but there was nothing illegal about what Senator Kirk did.
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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Yes, we must learn to value God more than our "perfectly natural" actions, because nature is not synonymous with morality in a fallen world.

That makes absolutely no sense if the god in question is omniscient, omnipotent and an interventionist.

The Tovian Way wrote:We are called to value God more than our desires, more than our loved ones, more than our very lives.

That's awfully narcissistic.

The Tovian Way wrote:Yes, we must value God more than our natural inclinations. God, it must be noted, has not given anyone an inclination to sin - He does not desire anyone to sin.

Yet he enables said inclinations, does he not?

The Tovian Way wrote:However, due to the fallen nature of creation, brought about by the sinful choices of free moral agents, we are not born perfect as He would have us, but with all manner of ailments and disorders, which include, unfortunately, the natural tendency toward sinful actions.

So, in other words, god knowingly allows his own creation to be twisted through the natural laws he himself created, and then dares to demand that we take responsibility and clean his mess?


It does indeed make sense. God values our free will, because only a freely chosen act can possibly have moral consequences. This includes the consequences of these freely chosen actions, and so, by our own sinful acts, creation remains fallen.
You may call it that. I call it the epitome of mercy and love. Were we not to learn to value God more than anything else, we could not become the kind of people capable of experiencing God in His full glory, which is heaven, and we would consign ourselves to the hell of being forever separated from God by our own choice. Since God desires our good, He calls us to learn to value Him above all, that we may become this kind of being.
He enables it only in the sense that He does not prevent it. He does not prevent it because this fallen creation is a consequence of human sin, of men's own free choices, and He values our free will too highly to deprive us of it.
It is not God's mess, it is our own. We are the ones who mired ourselves in sin, such that even now we rebel and rail against the good in preference for our sins, further miring ourselves and drawing us further away from God. And He does not demand that we take responsibility and clean the mess ourselves; He has done that on His own, in the atoning sacrifice of Christ. This sacrifice enables us, through His grace, to begin to choose God and reform our lives, to be an active partner in our own salvation.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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Haflin
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Founded: Apr 02, 2012
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Postby Haflin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 pm


That man is certainly using his power to aid in tyranny of majority. I guess he used it in a good way XD.

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TBA Field Marshal
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Founded: Sep 22, 2012
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Postby TBA Field Marshal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:29 pm

Caecuser wrote:
TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.


My personal belief is that some things are too important to be left up to democracy and the masses to approve of.


Everyone should have the right to freedom of speech and expression.

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Graknopia
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Postby Graknopia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:30 pm

TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:Bravo, Senator, bravo. :clap:


Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.

From what I saw, the Senator refuses to meet them, they can still go protest
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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:30 pm

Jormengand wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.

Why are these acts sinful?


They are sinful because God, the source of all Goodness, as commanded us in His moral law, not to perform them.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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Wisconsin9
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Founded: May 18, 2012
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Postby Wisconsin9 » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Jormengand wrote:Why are these acts sinful?


They are sinful because God, the source of all Goodness, as commanded us in His moral law, not to perform them.

The source of all goodness, including things like genocide?
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Graknopia
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Postby Graknopia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 pm

TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:Bravo, Senator, bravo. :clap:


Why should it be cancelled? Groups supporting LGBT rights can host rallies and public meetings, why can't anti-gay groups? After all, everyone has the right to freedom of speech and expression.

From what I saw, the Senator refuses to meet them, they can still go protest
2% of all Internet users would cry if Facebook broke down. If you are part of that 98% who simply would sit back and laugh, copy and paste this into your sig.

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Haflin
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Founded: Apr 02, 2012
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Postby Haflin » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 pm

The Tovian Way wrote:
Jormengand wrote:Why are these acts sinful?


They are sinful because God, the source of all Goodness, as commanded us in His moral law, not to perform them.

I disagree. The same god had us kill men that worked on Sunday.

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Lithosano
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Postby Lithosano » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 pm

Haflin wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:Bravo, Senator, bravo. :clap:

That man is certainly using his power to aid in tyranny of majority. I guess he used it in a good way XD.


That man is using his power to protect people's rights. The fact that the majority is not composed of bigots is antecedent.
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Resora
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Founded: Nov 05, 2012
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Postby Resora » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:31 pm

TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Caecuser wrote:
My personal belief is that some things are too important to be left up to democracy and the masses to approve of.


Everyone should have the right to freedom of speech and expression.

They still do. Access to Senate meeting rooms is not a guaranteed right. Nobody is saying they can't, you know, hand out fliers or whatever.
The history of progress is written in the blood of men and women who have dared to espouse an unpopular cause.

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The Tovian Way
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Postby The Tovian Way » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:32 pm

Caecuser wrote:
The Tovian Way wrote:
Homosexuality has never been a sin. Homosexual sex acts were, and continue to be, sinful. The legal punishment for committing such acts - death - is no longer operable.


This viewpoint of one sexuality being completely legitimate and the other being heinous is odd to me. There is functionally no difference between the two when they are used for pleasure (despite basic anatomical differences, they are essentially the same thing; sexual acts) and heterosexual sex can be performed without the intention or requirement of creating new life.

There just doesn't seem to be any reason to make one morally illegal and the other be fine. Especially considering both are consensual (when they are actually consensual).


There need not be a functional difference. God has created sexuality, and He has rights to determine how it may be properly used. God, as the source of all Goodness, has set down that certain sex acts are permitted and blessed, and all others are sinful.
Your claim is that the agents involved are irrelevant; but the commandment of God is precisely otherwise, that the agents, and the situation, are in fact highly relevant to the morality of the case.
“A true opium for the people is a belief in nothingness after death – the huge solace of thinking that for our betrayals, greed, cowardice, murders we are not going to be judged.” – Czeslaw Milosz

"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' " - C. S. Lewis

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TBA Field Marshal
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Founded: Sep 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby TBA Field Marshal » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:33 pm

Resora wrote:
TBA Field Marshal wrote:
Everyone should have the right to freedom of speech and expression.

They still do. Access to Senate meeting rooms is not a guaranteed right. Nobody is saying they can't, you know, hand out fliers or whatever.


Ah alright. Fair enough.

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