GUN CONTROL!

[Alouite]

Basing rights refers to the right to base military forces in a foreign nation, the US has this right in most nations, and if it asked Canada for those rights would they decline?

the have before

Okay, I believe you, but how bout a link to better prove your point on that respect?

Also, if the US actually threatened them with their military in secret would the Canadians not comply?

[Sociobiology]

the have before

Okay, I believe you, but how bout a link to better prove your point on that respect?

Also, if the US actually threatened them with their military in secret would the Canadians not comply?

hell the first time it happened they had a war with us and won, the most recent territorial dispute have usually ended at a draw or in the Canadian favor, such as the current dispute over the northwest passage.
so my question is where is your evidence?

and the Canadians have a massive military, comparable to China
They would easily go to war if the US was dumb enough to make threat like that, or more likely tell the US to fuck off which is what would happen, because even the US is not stupid enough to go to war with its largest trade partner and one of only three countries large than it.
Then we have Canadian opposition to several US wars.

also there's this

According to Gallup's annual public opinion polls, Canada has consistently been Americans' favorite nation, with 96% of Americans viewing Canada favorably in 2012.[4][5] According to a 2013 BBC World Service Poll, 84% of Americans view their northern neighbor positively, with only 5% expressing a negative view, the most favorable perception of Canada in the world. However, Canadian views of the U.S. are much more sharply divided, with 45% viewing the U.S. positively and 45% viewing the U.S. negatively.[6]

I mean it is just as likely that the US is a puppet of Canada

[Sociobiology]

but on average trained people are better shots than untrained.

Is lots of informal training meaningless or something?

do you know what an average is?

[Condunum]

Is lots of informal training meaningless or something?

do you know what an average is?

do you know what informal training is?

you said anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I'm saying he's not anecdotal evidence of an untrained person; someone with a lot of time at the range is not untrained.

[Sociobiology]

do you know what an average is?

do you know what informal training is?

you said anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I'm saying he's not anecdotal evidence of an untrained person; someone with a lot of time at the range is not untrained.

when did I ever use the words "formal training"?

you seem to think I said something I did not.
both men are anecdotal evidence , therefore useless for comparison

[Washington Resistance Army]

Okay, I believe you, but how bout a link to better prove your point on that respect?

Also, if the US actually threatened them with their military in secret would the Canadians not comply?

hell the first time it happened they had a war with us and won, the most recent territorial dispute have usually ended at a draw or in the Canadian favor, such as the current dispute over the northwest passage.
so my question is where is your evidence?

and the Canadians have a massive military, comparable to China
They would easily go to war if the US was dumb enough to make threat like that, or more likely tell the US to fuck off which is what would happen, because even the US is not stupid enough to go to war with its largest trade partner and one of only three countries large than it.
Then we have Canadian opposition to several US wars.

also there's this

According to Gallup's annual public opinion polls, Canada has consistently been Americans' favorite nation, with 96% of Americans viewing Canada favorably in 2012.[4][5] According to a 2013 BBC World Service Poll, 84% of Americans view their northern neighbor positively, with only 5% expressing a negative view, the most favorable perception of Canada in the world. However, Canadian views of the U.S. are much more sharply divided, with 45% viewing the U.S. positively and 45% viewing the U.S. negatively.[6]

I mean it is just as likely that the US is a puppet of Canada

O.o the Canadian military is nowhere near the size of the Chinese or American military's.

[North Calaveras]

lol punish the majority for the acts of the minority....I thought democrats were against that?

stay classy....

[Sociobiology]

hell the first time it happened they had a war with us and won, the most recent territorial dispute have usually ended at a draw or in the Canadian favor, such as the current dispute over the northwest passage.
so my question is where is your evidence?

and the Canadians have a massive military, comparable to China
They would easily go to war if the US was dumb enough to make threat like that, or more likely tell the US to fuck off which is what would happen, because even the US is not stupid enough to go to war with its largest trade partner and one of only three countries large than it.
Then we have Canadian opposition to several US wars.

also there's this

According to Gallup's annual public opinion polls, Canada has consistently been Americans' favorite nation, with 96% of Americans viewing Canada favorably in 2012.[4][5] According to a 2013 BBC World Service Poll, 84% of Americans view their northern neighbor positively, with only 5% expressing a negative view, the most favorable perception of Canada in the world. However, Canadian views of the U.S. are much more sharply divided, with 45% viewing the U.S. positively and 45% viewing the U.S. negatively.[6]

I mean it is just as likely that the US is a puppet of Canada

O.o the Canadian military is nowhere near the size of the Chinese or American military's.

comparable to China by capability, the Chinese military is rather poorly equipped.
Although I will admit it varies depending on what ranking you use.
No country compares to the US directly because the US severely overspends on its military. however a threat to invade Canada would likely spark a world war, and the US knows this.

[Sociobiology]

lol punish the majority for the acts of the minority....I thought democrats were against that?

stay classy....

a permit is not punishment.

[Luveria]

hell the first time it happened they had a war with us and won, the most recent territorial dispute have usually ended at a draw or in the Canadian favor, such as the current dispute over the northwest passage.
so my question is where is your evidence?

and the Canadians have a massive military, comparable to China
They would easily go to war if the US was dumb enough to make threat like that, or more likely tell the US to fuck off which is what would happen, because even the US is not stupid enough to go to war with its largest trade partner and one of only three countries large than it.
Then we have Canadian opposition to several US wars.

also there's this

According to Gallup's annual public opinion polls, Canada has consistently been Americans' favorite nation, with 96% of Americans viewing Canada favorably in 2012.[4][5] According to a 2013 BBC World Service Poll, 84% of Americans view their northern neighbor positively, with only 5% expressing a negative view, the most favorable perception of Canada in the world. However, Canadian views of the U.S. are much more sharply divided, with 45% viewing the U.S. positively and 45% viewing the U.S. negatively.[6]

I mean it is just as likely that the US is a puppet of Canada

O.o the Canadian military is nowhere near the size of the Chinese or American military's.

It's not the size that matters. It's how you use it.

[North Calaveras]

lol punish the majority for the acts of the minority....I thought democrats were against that?

stay classy....

a permit is not punishment.

stacking regulation after regulation is in my opinion.

" Oh we just want you to have a few more regulations" Anti-Gun

regulations pass and shooting still happens

" Just some more regulations" Anti-gun

regulation passes and shooting still happens

" we need more laws!" Anti-gun

"No more laws" pro-gun

"Why can't you be reasonable and compromise!!!" Anti-Gun

we always compromise little by little and nothing changes and yet we get called gun nuts....fucking pathetic.

[The Truth and Light]

lol punish the majority for the acts of the minority....I thought democrats were against that?

stay classy....

Think of it this way; the mass shootings and murders themselves were a punishment for poor regulation. Most people are against mass shootings, so we learn and get better.

[North Calaveras]

lol punish the majority for the acts of the minority....I thought democrats were against that?

stay classy....

Think of it this way; the mass shootings and murders themselves were a punishment for poor regulation. Most people are against mass shootings, so we learn and get better.

I'm pretty sure overall the united state has tougher gun laws now than it's entire history...

so where is the effectiveness of these bans.

[The Truth and Light]

Think of it this way; the mass shootings and murders themselves were a punishment for poor regulation. Most people are against mass shootings, so we learn and get better.

I'm pretty sure overall the united state has tougher gun laws now than it's entire history...

so where is the effectiveness of these bans.

Compared to our entire history we have significantly lower crime, it's just that there's a recent spike. What bans are you speaking of?

[North Calaveras]

I'm pretty sure overall the united state has tougher gun laws now than it's entire history...

so where is the effectiveness of these bans.

Compared to our entire history we have significantly lower crime, it's just that there's a recent spike. What bans are you speaking of?

fuck if I know, I just keep hearing about new gun laws passing yet we still have all these shootings

(which in all honesty is a joke when you consider how many shooting actually happen, they are really blown out of the water)

[Maqo]

"Gun control works for some other countries, why is the United States so opposed to it:?" Because no other country has as many guns per capita as the United States, nor a culture that has been so thoroughly ingrained with firearms. The United States long ago passed the point where all the guns could simply be done away with.

wrong
see Switzerland.
their gun culture is far more prevalent the lower ownership is due to a person owning few guns even if more people per capita in the country own fire arms.
people in the US who own guns own MORE guns but the number of people per capital that actually own guns are fewer.

Switzerland doesn't have a gun culture. They have guns, because they are required to. Most Swiss that I know have these locked in a cabinet in their nuclear bomb shelter (which they are also required to have), and only get them out when they need to do their mandatory shooting practice. Their perspective is a 'duty to bear arms', not a right.


.
.
.

I live in Australia. We have pretty strict gun laws and pretty effective gun control.
My opinion about gun control is that its primary aim needs to be to keep guns out of the hands of 'non-organised criminals'. People who will rob a gas station, a mug someone outside a bar, or murder a family member.
You're not ever going to be able to completely restrict guns to those desperate enough and with the means to get hold of them - eg, organised crime. You should try, but it's not going to be a 100% success. But by and large these people are also not a direct threat to the majority of the population. The average person is much more in danger of being robbed on the street or in a shopping center. And to keep guns from these kinds of criminals, you have to reduce the ways they can acquire the guns: from robbing gun stores or suppliers, from robbing non-criminal gun owners, and from legal purchases from gun stores.
So I am personally in favour of a near-total ban on handguns, but less harsh restrictions on shotguns and rifles. But my view of 'less harsh restrictions' is still what most in the US would call 'excessive'.

I think the 'defend yourself from the military/police/government' is a load of crock. In fact, I think it is probably a self-perpetuating problem with police brutality in the US. If police can be reasonably sure they will always have the upper hand of force in 99.99% of encounters, you won't see them using excessive force because they thought they saw a bulge in you pants. And if the military decides to turn on you... you're either a) screwed, or b) supported by the hundreds of thousands of servicemen who defect.


I'm not sure what the solution is. I think the US is a more dangerous country than most other countries of similar socioeconomic development because of its number of guns. But without a nationwide recall (which realistically will never happen), an effective gun control solution might never be possible.

[The Truth and Light]

Compared to our entire history we have significantly lower crime, it's just that there's a recent spike. What bans are you speaking of?

fuck if I know, I just keep hearing about new gun laws passing yet we still have all these shootings

(which in all honesty is a joke when you consider how many shooting actually happen, they are really blown out of the water)

I keep hearing about gun laws being shunned and publicly outcried, but that's immaterial.

Blown out of proportion, you mean? Perhaps so, perhaps not. We'd need evidence one way or the other.

[North Calaveras]

fuck if I know, I just keep hearing about new gun laws passing yet we still have all these shootings

(which in all honesty is a joke when you consider how many shooting actually happen, they are really blown out of the water)

I keep hearing about gun laws being shunned and publicly outcried, but that's immaterial.

Blown out of proportion, you mean? Perhaps so, perhaps not. We'd need evidence one way or the other.

even if we had a 100 mass school shooting a year, there are like over fifteen THOUSAND schools

so that's pitifully low statistically speaking

banning guns is like the war on drugs...it fails...hard

[The Truth and Light]

I keep hearing about gun laws being shunned and publicly outcried, but that's immaterial.

Blown out of proportion, you mean? Perhaps so, perhaps not. We'd need evidence one way or the other.

even if we had a 100 mass school shooting a year, there are like over fifteen THOUSAND schools

so that's pitifully low statistically speaking

banning guns is like the war on drugs...it fails...hard

That comparison is less than apt. Gun bans, according to you, are very effective because of the statistical rareness of shootings with them in place.

[Spirit of Hope]

even if we had a 100 mass school shooting a year, there are like over fifteen THOUSAND schools

so that's pitifully low statistically speaking

banning guns is like the war on drugs...it fails...hard

That comparison is less than apt. Gun bans, according to you, are very effective because of the statistical rareness of shootings with them in place.

Accept mass shootings have statistically increased, so I'm having trouble saying that bans or certain restrictions have decreased or stopped them.

[The Truth and Light]

That comparison is less than apt. Gun bans, according to you, are very effective because of the statistical rareness of shootings with them in place.

Accept mass shootings have statistically increased, so I'm having trouble saying that bans or certain restrictions have decreased or stopped them.

I was referring to the fact that NC thinks they're statistically negligible.

[Justorica]

I think citizens of nations (especially America) need to have guns, any kind of gun, without restriction for the same reason the Second Amendment was made, the reason why our forefathers included that Amendment: To rebel against a government that is trampling the constitution. What if the US Government decided to pull a Sulla or Caesar, and marched the military against it's own land and people? The military is outnumbered 300 to 1 in the US, not counting those who would refuse to do what the government says (which would be plenty). If the military was not just outnumbered, but outnumbered by an armed force, there is less a threat of us losing our democracy.

Not that I believe the government will do that (at least not in my life time), but there is always the unforeseen possibility, the unknowable chance that something happens.

And I don't think anyone should be required to have a gun. And I am not an advocate of Stand Your Ground laws. But people should be able to own whatever weapon they please, conceal & carry them in public, and especially be able to use them to defend their homes in case of intruder.

[Spirit of Hope]

Accept mass shootings have statistically increased, so I'm having trouble saying that bans or certain restrictions have decreased or stopped them.

I was referring to the fact that NC thinks they're statistically negligible.

Well they are statistically negligible when you compare them to the number of other shootings that take place. It would be like focusing legislation on 10 car plus pileups instead of on dealing with crashes in general. While the former is certainly more horrific on an individual basis they are less damaging over all because of how rare they are.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

I've never pushed a theory of gun control, so why not now?

- Make firearm registration required, but free, for all citizens that wish to own a firearm. In this way, the right is limited, but unrestricted in the sense that the only barrier to being able to own a firearm would be the purchase and subsequent registration of one.

- All firearms purchases must be registered to the owner's license for a registration fee, just like that which exists today. However, firearm purchasers have the option of taking a firearms safety and training course, for each firearm purchase, at substantially reduced cost. This discount hinges solely on the successful completion of at least the firearms safety course.

- Registered purchases will be linked to the owner's permit, but encrypted with a regularly-changing algorithm so that 1) each owner's gun registry is viewable only by authorities with legal standing to do so (having to have a judge release the records can get sticky, so this is a part that'd need some fleshing out), and 2) authorities can immediately ascertain if a suspect is registered as a gun owner without also knowing what weapons they have or how many they have.

- Class III/other specialty permits stay the same. Because, seriously, access to actual fully automatic rifles is something that probably should be restricted.

have you read my proposalhttp://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=17430102#p17430102

My proposal
create a federal firearms permit.
It would be a lifetime permit

getting said permit requires a background check, a minimal fee to cover cost (~$5-15), a written test, a one afternoon class on firearms safety and law, and a practical test (demonstrate safety, hit a reasonable target at reasonable distance)

the permit can be revoked for gun violations (reckless endangerment, illegal sales, ect.) , diagnosis of a serious mental disorder, or conviction of violent crime (armed robbery, attempted homicide, ect.).

To buy a firearm form any seller (including private sellers), to buy certain parts(like receivers), and to buy ammunition you will need a valid permit.

Record of sales will be kept, but accessible only with a warrant. so law enforcement can track dirty gun dealers, and illegal sales, but not invade privacy without just cause.

things like concealed carry, special collectors permits, and perhaps even different firearms type (shotgun, handgun, ect.) would be endorsements on the card, so only one card would be needed.

Yeah, mine is almost basically equivalent to yours, isn't it? The only places, so far, where I think it should differ from yours is:

- I think gun classes and education as an incentive to reduce registration fees for the purchaser would be more proactive than a first-time, catch-all class and training session. It makes a profit incentive on the back end for owners to get continuing education, which - while annoying, even for me - would probably be better in the long run.

- I think there shouldn't be a cost for initial permits, only because that portion of a law could get thorny in a hurry. Adding a bit of cost to the registration of a gun would either cover the cost of license processing or add to the motivation for purchasers to go through education.

The warrant thing, too, is pretty tricky, but it seems the best option available because that information should be private, but accessible by proper channels.

[Empire of Demonia]

For the love of the almighty Spaghetti Monster, not this thread again.

Totally agreed Gun control threads tend to be never ending cluster fucks of which no one wins