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Hawaii has legalized same sex marriage

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Blasveck
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Founded: Dec 21, 2010
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Postby Blasveck » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:19 pm

Caladaria wrote:Is there not a single person on this website who is in the right? Not a single person who disagrees with gay marriage? And the people here are very uncivilized. A civilized forum would not see such vitriol spewed out. Reasonable people would see the points in my argument.

And I was talking about the institution of marriage itself.....Polygamy, sex slavery, etc. were horrid abuses, but marriage between a man and a woman is not. Logical fallacies, contradictions, and so on and so forth: this is what I have been confronted with. And always the case that one who opposes gay marriage is automatically a homophobe or a bigot. Why would the focus be on gay marriage: it should be on economic and educational equality and on fulfilling the dream of Dr. King's speech. Slavery and Jim Crowism were far more horrid then anything experienced by homosexuals in this country: then of course, you would say that you are right and I am wrong. I know of Matthew Shephard and of others who were murdered because they were homosexuals. Now, I believe that he and others should never have died, and that they were born as Nature made them. Homosexuals are equal to everyone else, with the same rights as everyone else...But gay marriage does not fall under that definition. You will of course say that I rely too much on authority, on tradition, and on religion. However, I only rely upon what is in the right. These are my own beliefs, and I stand firmly behind them.

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” This is the essential basis of my beliefs.

Then you should reasonably understand why I, and other LGBT people, how we feel when we are told that we cannot marry the one we love.

How do you think that feels? To be told "No, you cannot marry the one you love. It is unnatural. It "violates" the institution of marriage?
Last edited by Blasveck on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Caladaria
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Postby Caladaria » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:19 pm

Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

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Rocopurr
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Postby Rocopurr » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

Why shouldn't it be legalized?
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Valendia
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Postby Valendia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.


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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Caladaria wrote:Is there not a single person on this website who is in the right?

Sure there are. You have me, and Lost Heros, and lots of other likeminded, wonderful human beings that understand LGBT people and the need to advocate for the recognition of their human rights.

Caladaria wrote:Not a single person who disagrees with gay marriage?

Oh, there's a lot of those... but most of them turn out to be rather unskilled in debating, if not outright trolls.

Caladaria wrote:And the people here are very uncivilized.

I take no responsibility for the far-right summer trolls.

Wait... you mean us, don't you? Well, ain't this rich... Playing the victim card so soon?

Caladaria wrote:A civilized forum would not see such vitriol spewed out.

Pot, you're speaking to the wrong kettle.

Caladaria wrote:Reasonable people would see the points in my argument.

We see the points in your argument. Sadly, they are not good points, and your entire argument's structure is extremely poor.

Caladaria wrote:And I was talking about the institution of marriage itself.....Polygamy, sex slavery, etc. were horrid abuses, but marriage between a man and a woman is not.

Marriage between a man and a woman is not a horrid abuse in itself, but presenting it as the only possible family structure is inhumane and unrealistic.

Caladaria wrote:Logical fallacies, contradictions, and so on and so forth: this is what I have been confronted with.

Pot, you're speaking to the wrong kettle again.

Caladaria wrote:And always the case that one who opposes gay marriage is automatically a homophobe or a bigot.

The patterns are there.

Caladaria wrote:Why would the focus be on gay marriage: it should be on economic and educational equality and on fulfilling the dream of Dr. King's speech.

Fortunately, most human beings can multitask, so you can take this pitiful red herring elsewhere. Really, your desperate rambling is getting quite annoying.

Caladaria wrote:Slavery and Jim Crowism were far more horrid then anything experienced by homosexuals in this country: then of course, you would say that you are right and I am wrong.

Well, homosexuals have been tortured, raped and killed so... yeah... you might want to shut up and re-think this part.

Caladaria wrote:I know of Matthew Shephard and of others who were murdered because they were homosexuals. Now, I believe that he and others should never have died, and that they were born as Nature made them. Homosexuals are equal to everyone else, with the same rights as everyone else...But gay marriage does not fall under that definition.

And you have made a really poor case at explaining why.

Caladaria wrote:You will of course say that I rely too much on authority, on tradition, and on religion. However, I only rely upon what is in the right.

In other words, you knowingly rely on irrelevant arguments? You won't get very far that way.

Caladaria wrote:These are my own beliefs, and I stand firmly behind them.

I find that to be quite unhealthy. A healthy, rational mind questions, doubts and leaves everything open to criticism.

Caladaria wrote:“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” This is the essential basis of my beliefs.

It most certainly seems to be the case, since you refuse to believe what is true.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

Why shouldn't it be legalized?
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Postby Menassa » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

1.) What does nature have to do with legal relationships? Nature doesn't regulate law.
2.) How is it illogical?
3.) Stop being obsessed with the right, tradition is not always preferable, in light of past abuses.
4.) Why not?
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.


Somebody give this guy an Academy Award!
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I am:
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Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Caladaria wrote:Is there not a single person on this website who is in the right? Not a single person who disagrees with gay marriage? And the people here are very uncivilized. A civilized forum would not see such vitriol spewed out. Reasonable people would see the points in my argument.

And I was talking about the institution of marriage itself.....Polygamy, sex slavery, etc. were horrid abuses, but marriage between a man and a woman is not. Logical fallacies, contradictions, and so on and so forth: this is what I have been confronted with. And always the case that one who opposes gay marriage is automatically a homophobe or a bigot. Why would the focus be on gay marriage: it should be on economic and educational equality and on fulfilling the dream of Dr. King's speech. Slavery and Jim Crowism were far more horrid then anything experienced by homosexuals in this country: then of course, you would say that you are right and I am wrong. I know of Matthew Shephard and of others who were murdered because they were homosexuals. Now, I believe that he and others should never have died, and that they were born as Nature made them. Homosexuals are equal to everyone else, with the same rights as everyone else...But gay marriage does not fall under that definition. You will of course say that I rely too much on authority, on tradition, and on religion. However, I only rely upon what is in the right. These are my own beliefs, and I stand firmly behind them.

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” This is the essential basis of my beliefs.

Of course we see your points, if not, we would not have been able to respond to them as directly as we have done, offering sources and examples. And you will find many that disagree if you read the previous pages.

Logical fallacies just means that the logic in your argument has problems, for example, makes assumptions that don't necessarily hold. It's not saying you lack logic or anything. You can take this as a learning point on how to construct logical arguments which are more airtight.

Also, governments can multitask; they can focus on gay marriage AND economic and educational equality at the same time. You may not see it as so, but many others see gay marriage as very important for governments to act on.

It's quite in the very definition itself of the terms that one who opposes gay marriage is a homophobe or bigot. Although I'd prefer if arguments weren't so charged with emotion such that these terms get to be used.

It's good to question your beliefs once in a while to make sure you actually have reason to believe them, and aren't blindly following them just because that's how you were brought up as a child/that's what some person of authority said.
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Ze Destroyers
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Founded: Jul 22, 2013
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Postby Ze Destroyers » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

You give no arguments why which shows you act of base emotion and your conditioning, when you get a legitimate argument that isn't "There are more important things" Then tell us because I'm fairly sure basic human rights is quite an important thing.

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The Truth and Light
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Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

You might develop better ethos if your argument sounded less like an under-budget telenovela.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:25 pm

The Truth and Light wrote:
Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.

You might develop better ethos if your argument sounded less like an under-budget telenovela.

So it isn't just me, huh?
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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The Truth and Light
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Founded: Jan 12, 2011
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Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Truth and Light wrote:You might develop better ethos if your argument sounded less like an under-budget telenovela.

So it isn't just me, huh?

It's not just you. I read it and I felt like I was watching Univision. It was that bad.

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Rocopurr
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Postby Rocopurr » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 pm

Liriena wrote:
Caladaria wrote:Well......it is clear that society is turning to support gay marriage. One day in the future, whether it be forty, fifty, sixty, seventy, or eighty years from now (or more) we will see that this institution is legalized throughout the Western World, and that those whom nature did not intend to be in a legal relationship would have that right. All those now, support the turn of the tide, which is not a negative thing, but in this circumstance is illogical. I have wasted my breath arguing for the right, for the right......Oh God, why, why. Gay marriage should never, ever, ever be legalized.


Somebody give this guy an Academy Award!

Way ahead of you. He has already received that and been nominated for several other awards.
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Regnum Dominae
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Postby Regnum Dominae » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 pm

Valendia wrote:
Caladaria wrote:Is there not a single person on this website who is in the right? Not a single person who disagrees with gay marriage? And the people here are very uncivilized. A civilized forum would not see such vitriol spewed out. Reasonable people would see the points in my argument.


Your definition of "in the right" is as subjective as the opposing arguments. Actually, no, it is more so given that the pro-gay marriage side actually has historical fact regarding the legal union on their side.

And I was talking about the institution of marriage itself.....Polygamy, sex slavery, etc. were horrid abuses, but marriage between a man and a woman is not. Logical fallacies, contradictions, and so on and so forth: this is what I have been confronted with. And always the case that one who opposes gay marriage is automatically a homophobe or a bigot. Why would the focus be on gay marriage: it should be on economic and educational equality and on fulfilling the dream of Dr. King's speech. Slavery and Jim Crowism were far more horrid then anything experienced by homosexuals in this country: then of course, you would say that you are right and I am wrong. I know of Matthew Shephard and of others who were murdered because they were homosexuals. Now, I believe that he and others should never have died, and that they were born as Nature made them. Homosexuals are equal to everyone else, with the same rights as everyone else...But gay marriage does not fall under that definition. You will of course say that I rely too much on authority, on tradition, and on religion. However, I only rely upon what is in the right. These are my own beliefs, and I stand firmly behind them.

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” This is the essential basis of my beliefs.


The funny thing is, these sorts of arguments have been used before - in order to deny people the right to marry outside their race.

Yep.

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
Last edited by Regnum Dominae on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I support peace in Israel and Palestine. The governments and people in power on all sides are an absolute disgrace, and their unwillingness to pursue peace is a disservice to the people they are meant to be serving. The status quo is not simply untenable; it is unquestionably unacceptable.

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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
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Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:26 pm

The Truth and Light wrote:
Liriena wrote:So it isn't just me, huh?

It's not just you. I read it and I felt like I was watching Univision. It was that bad.

We need a gif for every time someone rambles so melodramatically.
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The Truth and Light
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Posts: 29396
Founded: Jan 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Truth and Light wrote:It's not just you. I read it and I felt like I was watching Univision. It was that bad.

We need a gif for every time someone rambles so melodramatically.

Find one of Oprah crying and we'll be all set.

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Furious Grandmothers
Senator
 
Posts: 3964
Founded: Jan 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Furious Grandmothers » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:
Valendia wrote:
Your definition of "in the right" is as subjective as the opposing arguments. Actually, no, it is more so given that the pro-gay marriage side actually has historical fact regarding the legal union on their side.



The funny thing is, these sorts of arguments have been used before - in order to deny people the right to marry outside their race.

Yep.

"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."

I like how malay is in there with all the other colors. I want my walls painted in malay.
Last edited by Furious Grandmothers on Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lithosano
Diplomat
 
Posts: 801
Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 pm

Caladaria wrote:Is there not a single person on this website who is in the right? Not a single person who disagrees with gay marriage? And the people here are very uncivilized. A civilized forum would not see such vitriol spewed out. Reasonable people would see the points in my argument.

And I was talking about the institution of marriage itself.....Polygamy, sex slavery, etc. were horrid abuses, but marriage between a man and a woman is not. Logical fallacies, contradictions, and so on and so forth: this is what I have been confronted with. And always the case that one who opposes gay marriage is automatically a homophobe or a bigot. Why would the focus be on gay marriage: it should be on economic and educational equality and on fulfilling the dream of Dr. King's speech. Slavery and Jim Crowism were far more horrid then anything experienced by homosexuals in this country: then of course, you would say that you are right and I am wrong. I know of Matthew Shephard and of others who were murdered because they were homosexuals. Now, I believe that he and others should never have died, and that they were born as Nature made them. Homosexuals are equal to everyone else, with the same rights as everyone else...But gay marriage does not fall under that definition. You will of course say that I rely too much on authority, on tradition, and on religion. However, I only rely upon what is in the right. These are my own beliefs, and I stand firmly behind them.

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.” This is the essential basis of my beliefs.


You are the one who is in the wrong. You have consistently failed to present a logical, coherent argument, and yet you have the audacity to claim that your arguments are reasonable. Reason is clearly not a concept you grasp.

Opposing basic rights for other people, opposing rights for others you yourself enjoy, is an act of bigotry. You can claim otherwise, but opposing my basic rights makes you a bigot. Own up to it. Stop the "I'm fine with gay people, honest!" crap. You're a bigot. Own it.

There are no grades to injustice; injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere. "Oh, these people had it worse! Therefore, you don't get rights!" is a shitty argument, and you know it. You flat out ignore the struggles of gays, lesbians, and bisexuals across the world. Did you know that homosexuality is illegal in 76 countries? Did you know that it is punishable by death in five countries? Do you have any idea what is happening in Russia right now? By continuing to perpetuate this asinine bullshit, that gay relationships are less than their straight counterparts, you are perpetuating the notion of gay people as second-class citizens. You are enabling the brutal maltreatment of LGBT people across the world. Marriage is a basic human right. This is agreed upon by various regional courts, the Supreme Court of the United States, and the Universal Declaration of Human rights itself.

You can stand firmly behind whatever you want. That does not make you right. George Wallace stood firmly behind segregation. Hitler stood firmly behind the extermination of Jews, the disabled, gay people, Roma, and others.

The only one who has been fooled is you.
Learn Things AND Feed the Hungry!
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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52733
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:29 pm

The Truth and Light wrote:
Liriena wrote:We need a gif for every time someone rambles so melodramatically.

Find one of Oprah crying and we'll be all set.

Will this do?
Image
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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The Truth and Light
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29396
Founded: Jan 12, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby The Truth and Light » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:29 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Truth and Light wrote:Find one of Oprah crying and we'll be all set.

Will this do?
Image

:lol2: Fucking hell, now I'm crying.

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The Orson Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30805
Founded: Mar 20, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Orson Empire » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:30 pm

Though I view homosexuality as disgusting and immoral, it is good that they are finally granting equal marriage rights to everyone.
Heterosexual male and from the US of A

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Liriena
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52733
Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:30 pm

The Orson Empire wrote:Though I view homosexuality as disgusting and immoral, it is good that they are finally granting equal marriage rights to everyone.

Wait... what?
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

User avatar
Valendia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 897
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Valendia » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:31 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Orson Empire wrote:Though I view homosexuality as disgusting and immoral, it is good that they are finally granting equal marriage rights to everyone.

Wait... what?


I.e. I may not agree with it but I would rather people be treated equally under the law.

Better than nothing, no?
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“It is the craft of speech that makes one strong; for one's greatest strength is in words, and diplomacy mightier than all fighting.”

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