Organic vs. Conventional

[Luxew]

I reread (or skimmed) parts of Eating Better Than Organic, and saw that there our different definitions for the word "local" in this case. His favorite was Joan Dye Gussow, who defined local as "in a 200-mile radius from your home." I am an idiot to local farming as I have no clue what they grow where I live (I live in Southwestern Pennsylvania, so PA, OH, V, etc).

[The Tundra]

What do these two quotes have in common? They both demonstrate that their authors are unaware of the correlation-causation fallacy.

How else would they starve?

war, famine, toxic waters, bad plumbing, poor storage, war, feudal trading, the plague, lack of welfare, war, sickiness, war, taxes, plague, plague, famine, plague, poverty, and plague

the middle ages were fucked up.

[Shaggai]

No study has ever found GMO's to be toxic to people; they provide better yields, and are thus able to feed more people than organic foods ever could hope to.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... fied-crops
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 013.806408

You'd be surprised.

From the first:

On balance, herbicide-resistant GM crops are less damaging to the environment than conventional crops grown at industrial scale. A study by PG Economics, a consulting firm in Dorchester, UK, found that the introduction of herbicide-tolerant cotton saved 15.5 million kilograms of herbicide between 1996 and 2011, a 6.1% reduction from what would have been used on conventional cotton. And GM crop technology delivered an 8.9% improvement to the environmental impact quotient — a measure that considers factors such as pesticide toxicity to wildlife — says Graham Brookes, co-director of PG Economics and a co-author of the industry-funded study, which many scientists consider to be among the field’s most extensive and authoritative assessments of environmental impacts.

That was from the only segment of the article that actually reflected badly on GM crops.

[Luxew]

How else would they starve?

war, famine, toxic waters, bad plumbing, poor storage, war, feudal trading, the plague, lack of welfare, war, sickiness, war, taxes, plague, plague, famine, plague, poverty, and plague

the middle ages were fucked up.

Don't forget greedy kings!

[Yuktova]

When it comes to health benefits and environmental stuff: Organic > Conventional

When it comes to the economy, price, and efficiency: Conventional > Organic

Efficiency my ass.
If we used vertical farming, rather than our outdated methods, we wouldn't need any use of GMOs or pesticides.

[Holy Empire of Avalon]

How else would they starve?

war, famine, toxic waters, bad plumbing, poor storage, war, feudal trading, the plague, lack of welfare, war, sickiness, war, taxes, plague, plague, famine, plague, poverty, and plague

the middle ages were fucked up.

I specifically loved the repetition here, though we can't really blame the people back then for not helping one another out then like we can now. I mean to go alert the next town over that they were starving some guy would have to carry a letter for three to four miles through dangerous forests and other crazy terrain.

[United Marxist Nations]

No study has ever found GMO's to be toxic to people; they provide better yields, and are thus able to feed more people than organic foods ever could hope to.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... fied-crops
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10. ... 013.806408

You'd be surprised.

And here is much more evidence reflecting the opposite view:

http://goldenrice.org/PDFs/Opportunity_ ... C_2009.pdf
http://www.ama-assn.org/resources/doc/c ... dfoods.pdf
http://www.nap.edu/catalog.php?record_id=10977#toc
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2408621/
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2012/ ... ment.shtml
http://www.aaas.org/news/releases/2012/ ... tement.pdf


For a greater list, see this post (which is where I got these from):
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=265963&p=16980286&hilit=GMOs#p16980286

[Luxew]

When it comes to health benefits and environmental stuff: Organic > Conventional

When it comes to the economy, price, and efficiency: Conventional > Organic

Efficiency my ass.
If we used vertical farming, rather than our outdated methods, we wouldn't need any use of GMOs or pesticides.

With the local farming idea, I have to disagree with the helps the environment. It does, but if you live in Maine but if you want an organic orange from Florida, how much oil are we investing in the plane ride and/or truck drive.

[Risottia]

At our school lately, our class had a debate of organic vs. conventional

Funny, the only inorganic compounds I generally eat are sodium chloride and oxidane. Everything else is organic.
I don't see how people could consider "conventional" food stuff like ferrous oxide or hexahydrate cupric nitrate.

[United Marxist Nations]

When it comes to health benefits and environmental stuff: Organic > Conventional

When it comes to the economy, price, and efficiency: Conventional > Organic

Efficiency my ass.
If we used vertical farming, rather than our outdated methods, we wouldn't need any use of GMOs or pesticides.

Source?

[Luxew]

At our school lately, our class had a debate of organic vs. conventional

Funny, the only inorganic compounds I generally eat are sodium chloride and oxidane. Everything else is organic.
I don't see how people could consider "conventional" food stuff like ferrous oxide or hexahydrate cupric nitrate.

However, conventional is has a long range of meanings to me. One is: There's industrial ranching, where all farm animals are shoved into pens, fattened up with supplements and chemicals, dosed with antibiotics, and slaughtered.

[The Tundra]

Funny, the only inorganic compounds I generally eat are sodium chloride and oxidane. Everything else is organic.
I don't see how people could consider "conventional" food stuff like ferrous oxide or hexahydrate cupric nitrate.

However, conventional is has a long range of meanings to me. One is: There's industrial ranching, where all farm animals are shoved into pens, fattened up with supplements and chemicals, dosed with antibiotics, and slaughtered.

and produce horrible tastes.

[United Marxist Nations]

However, conventional is has a long range of meanings to me. One is: There's industrial ranching, where all farm animals are shoved into pens, fattened up with supplements and chemicals, dosed with antibiotics, and slaughtered.

and produce horrible tastes.

Subjective.

[Pandeeria]

However, conventional is has a long range of meanings to me. One is: There's industrial ranching, where all farm animals are shoved into pens, fattened up with supplements and chemicals, dosed with antibiotics, and slaughtered.

and produce horrible tastes.

Taste is subjective. Organic and Conventional taste the same to me. Hell, in the future they could induce genes that make it taste a certain way to your liking.

[Luxew]

However, conventional is has a long range of meanings to me. One is: There's industrial ranching, where all farm animals are shoved into pens, fattened up with supplements and chemicals, dosed with antibiotics, and slaughtered.

and produce horrible tastes.

What's really scary is the rise in antibiotic-resistant disease amongst farm animals. If the we eat tons of that meat (I prefer my chicken and steak, but still I don't eat meat often), doesn't that mean we could become antibiotic-resistant as well (as they say, "You are what you eat").

[The Tundra]

and produce horrible tastes.

Subjective.

i would personally make you a fresh steak from an organically grown cow, and side by side it up with a steak that was produced commercially. i'd be the soul of my second born that you'd prefer the organic steak in a blind taste test.

[Luxew]

and produce horrible tastes.

Taste is subjective. Organic and Conventional taste the same to me. Hell, in the future they could induce genes that make it taste a certain way to your liking.

I agree, as I once ate an organic apple and con. apple. The organic apple had a slight petroleum-y taste (as I later read that the apple was from out-of-state). John Cloud had the same issue.

[United Marxist Nations]

and produce horrible tastes.

What's really scary is the rise in antibiotic-resistant disease amongst farm animals. If the we eat tons of that meat (I prefer my chicken and steak, but still I don't eat meat often), doesn't that mean we could become antibiotic-resistant as well (as they say, "You are what you eat").

That's not how anti-biotic-resistance works. The anti-biotics we use generally only harm bacteria & protists. I'm going to assume you mean that our disease-inducing bacteria & protists would become anti-biotic resistant; however, the microbes would be destroyed by the cooking process anyway.

[Holy Empire of Avalon]

Taste is subjective. Organic and Conventional taste the same to me. Hell, in the future they could induce genes that make it taste a certain way to your liking.

I agree, as I once ate an organic apple and con. apple. The organic apple had a slight petroleum-y taste (as I later read that the apple was from out-of-state). John Cloud had the same issue.

My non organic veggies rot about a week before my organic ones do, no joke. I got apples one time (back during my mid change to organic food) and the conventional apples rotted about three hours after buying, I still have the organic apples.

[Pandeeria]

Taste is subjective. Organic and Conventional taste the same to me. Hell, in the future they could induce genes that make it taste a certain way to your liking.

I agree, as I once ate an organic apple and con. apple. The organic apple had a slight petroleum-y taste (as I later read that the apple was from out-of-state). John Cloud had the same issue.

Yeah I also just really dislike the "If it's not natural, it tastes like shit/is unsafe!" Mentality.

[The Tundra]

I agree, as I once ate an organic apple and con. apple. The organic apple had a slight petroleum-y taste (as I later read that the apple was from out-of-state). John Cloud had the same issue.

My non organic veggies rot about a week before my organic ones do, no joke. I got apples one time (back during my mid change to organic food) and the conventional apples rotted about three hours after buying, I still have the organic apples.

um....those apple should have fermented by now.

[Luxew]

What's really scary is the rise in antibiotic-resistant disease amongst farm animals. If the we eat tons of that meat (I prefer my chicken and steak, but still I don't eat meat often), doesn't that mean we could become antibiotic-resistant as well (as they say, "You are what you eat").

That's not how anti-biotic-resistance works. The anti-biotics we use generally only harm bacteria & protists. I'm going to assume you mean that our disease-inducing bacteria & protists would become anti-biotic resistant; however, the microbes would be destroyed by the cooking process anyway.

Thanks, that was what I wondering.

[United Marxist Nations]

Subjective.

i would personally make you a fresh steak from an organically grown cow, and side by side it up with a steak that was produced commercially. i'd be the soul of my second born that you'd prefer the organic steak in a blind taste test.

1) That's still subjectivity. You know what that word means, right?
2) Your bet isn't scientific evidence.
3) I've had organic foods before, and they tasted no different than the conventional (organic is commercial too, commercial just means that it's being sold for profit); then, I'd have to go with conventional, given the high crop-yields.

[Holy Empire of Avalon]

My non organic veggies rot about a week before my organic ones do, no joke. I got apples one time (back during my mid change to organic food) and the conventional apples rotted about three hours after buying, I still have the organic apples.

um....those apple should have fermented by now.

Yeah considering that was last month they probably are worm food in the dump now, still doesn't invalidate my evidence though.

[United Marxist Nations]

um....those apple should have fermented by now.

Yeah considering that was last month they probably are worm food in the dump now, still doesn't invalidate my evidence though.

Were they kept in identical conditions? It does invalidate your statement, because you said that you still had them. Plus, it sounds to me like you just got bad apples.