Turkey and the European Union

[Ayreonia]

The European Union is an experiment that is bound to fail in my opinion. It cannot work unless the nation states composing it surrender more and more power to the european bureaucracy and I don't see that happening.

Turkey is probably better off on its own, it has a robust economy and does not need to join the EU to be successful(or share the burden of european failures, like greece).

Although I am a Greek, I still agree with you that the E.U. in the long run has left too many negative impacts for Greece. The Greek economy was fine in the 70s, and then came the Euro.

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

Although I am a Greek, I still agree with you that the E.U. in the long run has left too many negative impacts for Greece. The Greek economy was fine in the 70s, and then came the Euro.

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

Nope. I blame the ineptness of the Greek government in its economic and financial handling, the lax attitude that has grown there, but also the big efforts that were mounted to coerce and persuade Greece to join the E.U. and adopt the Euro.

[Ayreonia]

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

Nope. I blame the ineptness of the Greek government in its economic and financial handling, the lax attitude that has grown there, but also the big efforts that were mounted to coerce and persuade Greece to join the E.U. and adopt the Euro.

Nobody forced Greece to join.

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

Nope. I blame the ineptness of the Greek government in its economic and financial handling, the lax attitude that has grown there, but also the big efforts that were mounted to coerce and persuade Greece to join the E.U. and adopt the Euro.

Nobody forced Greece to join.

The campaign to persuade Greece and lobby the government was well chronicled in this book I read a year ago about the Euro Crisis. I agree with you that "forced" is a bit of an exaggeration, but it was an extensive movement.

[Benuty]

Why do the Jews live in the past?

I don't think they do.

Well certain members do, the rest of us go on with our lives keeping the events mainly in historical context, the days of grief & sorrow, and debates about ethical justice.

[Genivaria]

Nobody forced Greece to join.

The campaign to persuade Greece and lobby the government was well chronicled in this book I read a year ago about the Euro Crisis. I agree with you that "forced" is a bit of an exaggeration, but it was an extensive movement.

Oh 'this book you read' ? I'm sure that's a PERFECTLY legitimate source.

[The Kingdom of Nea Hellas]

The campaign to persuade Greece and lobby the government was well chronicled in this book I read a year ago about the Euro Crisis. I agree with you that "forced" is a bit of an exaggeration, but it was an extensive movement.

Oh 'this book you read' ? I'm sure that's a PERFECTLY legitimate source.

Its called "Bust" by Matthew Lynn.

[Benuty]

Although I am a Greek, I still agree with you that the E.U. in the long run has left too many negative impacts for Greece. The Greek economy was fine in the 70s, and then came the Euro.

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

I blame Greece's instability with its financial system (n ie Inflation and lying about its financial status).

[Corumm]

The European Union is basically a giant captive market for german exports and not much else.

[Benuty]

The European Union is basically a giant captive market for german exports and not much else.

Proof of such bold accusatory language?

[Saruhan]

1. Indian food is rather common it britain and the west now, are they indian or is india european?
2. as conquerers. My Indian Britain comparison rises up again
3. because at that point they still held parts of europe in chains
4. source
5. France and Indonesia
6. Okay, cultural genocide is good now?
7. Indian Britain again
8. Indian Britain again
9. Indian Britain 5, electric boogaloo
10&11. Yeah, small wonder a nomadic tribal society adapted the architecture of a conquered land, funny that
12. Bombay and Mumbai
13. Funny too how the middle east used to be christian and pagan

1. And? So what? Indian food is recognized as part of British cuisine, and is seen as a foreign import. This isn't the case with Turkish food.
2. And? There was and still is a considerable Turkish presence in the Balkans.
3. And?
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Kad ... ostume.jpg
5. Is this not a greater similarity than that of Vietnam and Europe?
6. What does that have to do with anything? Did I ever say it was okay? And since when was reusing them for something else cultural genocide?
7. Actually, not at all like British India. The Ottoman Empire held a considerable portion of the Balkans and played a large part in numerous European wars as a major nearby player.
8. why does this matter
9. Do you even know what you're talking about?
10&11. Are you denying that they're cultural similarities? Or do you like going around attacking strawmen? Well, no shit, of course that would happen. So what? You're just going to ignore it because of that?
12. And?..
13. What's your point?

1. Just like turkish is a foreign import to europe
2. From imports, again indian britain
3. Let's see, if their territory in was in a bad way europe why might they be called a sick man of europe
4 . 1 picture tells absolutely nothing
5. Not really, religion, language, philosophy both now and in the past, etc
6. You said all the churches that they stole and turned into mosques is an argument for their europeanness, not me
7. So did the Golden Hoard, are they european?
8. Claiming something =/= being it. The British claimed to be emperors of india at several points, and they still had more legitimacy that the turks
9. I don't see how taking parts of europe makes you european, especially when you genocide or lose all of them.
10&11 If the martians invaded tomorrow, and we adapted their building methods, are we martian?
12. Just because you fuck up the pronunciation doesn't mean anything. If anything it shows even more than it isn't you native land.
13. the muslims invaded and made it muslim, it wasn't that the head of the orthodox church that decided to go to the turks it was the turks who's lust for land brought them to the Patriarch

[Geilinor]

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

Nope. I blame the ineptness of the Greek government in its economic and financial handling, the lax attitude that has grown there, but also the big efforts that were mounted to coerce and persuade Greece to join the E.U. and adopt the Euro.

Coerce? Persuading makes sense, but are you seriously arguing that Greece was "forced to act or think in a certain way by use of pressure, threats, or intimidation"?

[Ayreonia]

You're seriously blaming the Euro for the massive fuckup that's the Greek economy?

I blame Greece's instability with its financial system (n ie Inflation and lying about its financial status).

And you are right.

It seriously baffles me that a government thinks that falsifying reports of their financial status to enter a union with financial criteria is a good idea.

[Mkuki]

Assuming the first two are directed at me:

1. I'm still confused on how there is a difference. For one, "European culture" is hardly homogenous or monolithic. For two, Turkish culture is not completely distinct from that of Europe. Especially given its traditional role as the gateway between Europe and Asia. For three, please provide proof of the last claim. For four, Islam is not as distinct from Christianity as some seem to think. Especially the average Turkish approach to secularism and Islam.

2. Is it? Europe, even limited to just EU countries, is hardly monolithic. Also, as far as I can tell, a number of countries, like France and Sweden, have been doing their best to separate themselves from the Christian-dominant cultures that used to rule over them in the past. Turkish and European history are inextricably linked. The Ottomans are probably the single greatest reason for why European colonists and explorers went south around Africa and west across the Atlantic.

3. I'm not Turkish. I'm an American.

European culture is not homogenous, yet there are several traits that form the core of so called European culture, Christianity, the enlightenment, Greek/Roman influence and the reformation.

Turkey is not part of that culture; however it did have a role as the “other” to Christendom and later on Europe. As I recommended earlier starting with Delanty inventing Europe might be a good start for information regarding this topic.

While it is true that Europe is no longer Christian, to deny the influence it has had over our morals, norms and costume would be senseless.

And to claim that Turkey is a natural part of the European cultural group is just an outright lie. They do bridge both the West and the East; however it would be better if they seek their own destiny. In Europe they would always be the one standing out.

1. Yes, Turkey did have an effect, and was affected, by those four things. Especially with Christianity (they conquered the Byzantines for Christ's sake) and Greco-Roman influences (they conquered both the Byzantines and Near Middle East for fucks sake).

2. What do you mean "Europe is no longer Christian"?

3. To claim Turkish culture is completely separate from this "European culture", something that has yet to actually be clearly defined, is an outright lie.

4. If you say "European culture" isn't homogenous then why are you treating it as such?

[Starwarswasnotthatbad]

European culture is not homogenous, yet there are several traits that form the core of so called European culture, Christianity, the enlightenment, Greek/Roman influence and the reformation.

Turkey is not part of that culture; however it did have a role as the “other” to Christendom and later on Europe. As I recommended earlier starting with Delanty inventing Europe might be a good start for information regarding this topic.

While it is true that Europe is no longer Christian, to deny the influence it has had over our morals, norms and costume would be senseless.

And to claim that Turkey is a natural part of the European cultural group is just an outright lie. They do bridge both the West and the East; however it would be better if they seek their own destiny. In Europe they would always be the one standing out.

1. Yes, Turkey did have an effect, and was affected, by those four things. Especially with Christianity (they conquered the Byzantines for Christ's sake) and Greco-Roman influences (they conquered both the Byzantines and Near Middle East for fucks sake).

2. What do you mean "Europe is no longer Christian"?

3. To claim Turkish culture is completely separate from this "European culture", something that has yet to actually be clearly defined, is an outright lie.

4. If you say "European culture" isn't homogenous then why are you treating it as such?

I am not quite sure if I was being unclear or you are simple unwilling to read what I wrote.

You can talk about an American culture yet there is no denying that there are cultural differences between let’s say Texas and New York, yet there are core traits that would be found in both locations, that would form the core of so called American culture. As I am sure you should know better than me. The same would apply to Europe.

It is often useful to have a basic knowledge skill in a field if you wish to participate in a debate, I have at several points refereed to books by authors who deal with the issue of Europe and European culture and identity, Turkey has always been seen as outside the European cultural sphere. As mentioned before the danger of Turkey as the “other” of Europe had a very positive effect in creating an identity of us Europeans/Christendom versus Turks/Heathens. If you have other sources that state otherwise, do bring them to the debate.

Very few Europeans are religious these days. I thought that was common knowledge.

That the Ottomans conquered Constantinople did in fact in many ways bring about the enlightenment, Western Europe got an endless supply of knowledge brought to them by fleeing nobles/monks and others. Yet I am going to assume that was not what you had in mind. I suppose next one will argue that seeing how Americans conquered the Native Americans, Americans are now part of Native American culture and identity.

[Mkuki]

You can talk about an American culture yet there is no denying that there are cultural differences between let’s say Texas and New York, yet there are core traits that would be found in both locations, that would form the core of so called American culture. As I am sure you should know better than me. The same would apply to Europe.

What core traits are these then?

It is often useful to have a basic knowledge skill in a field if you wish to participate in a debate,

Trust me, I do.

I have at several points refereed to books by authors who deal with the issue of Europe and European culture and identity,

1. I have seen none of that in any of your responses to me.
2. Why should I care what a few authors write about the relationship between Turkey and Europe?

Turkey has always been seen as outside the European cultural sphere. As mentioned before the danger of Turkey as the “other” of Europe had a very positive effect in creating an identity of us Europeans/Christendom versus Turks/Heathens. If you have other sources that state otherwise, do bring them to the debate.

1. Except that is not true. European powers have worked with the Ottomans multiple times during times of military conflict and war.
2. Sources on historical perceptions?
3. I still don't know what this "European cultural sphere" is.

Very few Europeans are religious these days. I thought that was common knowledge.

Except that statement is wrong. Doubly so.

That the Ottomans conquered Constantinople did in fact in many ways bring about the enlightenment, Western Europe got an endless supply of knowledge brought to them by fleeing nobles/monks and others. Yet I am going to assume that was not what you had in mind. I suppose next one will argue that seeing how Americans conquered the Native Americans, Americans are now part of Native American culture and identity.

1. That was a pretty stupid claim to make.

2. Not true, in some part. Europeans, mainly the clergy, had had access to the records and theories from the Roman period at least four centuries prior to the beginning of the Enlightenment. This knowledge was preserved by the Byzantines, the Arabs, and the Ottomans.

3. I mentioned the Ottomans and the discovery of the New World because of how tightly the Ottomans held control over the spice trade.

[Towson]

Yes,Also love your new Flag Kemalist.

[Starwarswasnotthatbad]

You can talk about an American culture yet there is no denying that there are cultural differences between let’s say Texas and New York, yet there are core traits that would be found in both locations, that would form the core of so called American culture. As I am sure you should know better than me. The same would apply to Europe.

What core traits are these then?

It is often useful to have a basic knowledge skill in a field if you wish to participate in a debate,

Trust me, I do.

I have at several points refereed to books by authors who deal with the issue of Europe and European culture and identity,

1. I have seen none of that in any of your responses to me.
2. Why should I care what a few authors write about the relationship between Turkey and Europe?

Turkey has always been seen as outside the European cultural sphere. As mentioned before the danger of Turkey as the “other” of Europe had a very positive effect in creating an identity of us Europeans/Christendom versus Turks/Heathens. If you have other sources that state otherwise, do bring them to the debate.

1. Except that is not true. European powers have worked with the Ottomans multiple times during times of military conflict and war.
2. Sources on historical perceptions?
3. I still don't know what this "European cultural sphere" is.

Very few Europeans are religious these days. I thought that was common knowledge.

Except that statement is wrong. Doubly so.

That the Ottomans conquered Constantinople did in fact in many ways bring about the enlightenment, Western Europe got an endless supply of knowledge brought to them by fleeing nobles/monks and others. Yet I am going to assume that was not what you had in mind. I suppose next one will argue that seeing how Americans conquered the Native Americans, Americans are now part of Native American culture and identity.

1. That was a pretty stupid claim to make.

2. Not true, in some part. Europeans, mainly the clergy, had had access to the records and theories from the Roman period at least four centuries prior to the beginning of the Enlightenment. This knowledge was preserved by the Byzantines, the Arabs, and the Ottomans.

3. I mentioned the Ottomans and the discovery of the New World because of how tightly the Ottomans held control over the spice trade.

I am not quite sure if I can take you even remotely serious, I am European, and I live here. Religion has very little influence in most people’s life.

The link you sent regarding religion in Europe shows that in 2010, 51% of the people within the EU believe in god, while 49% did not. Why you would think this means Europeans are religious is beyond me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance

Yes if we look at the numbers, we sure do go to Church a lot in Europe. That was irony.

I stated before that Delanty, inventing Europe would be a good start; I am also very fond of Anthony D. Smith.

G. Barraclough, European Unity in Thought and Action would be a good start regarding historical perceptions.

Academic papers and books are normally considered valid sources to present in debates. They have actually done some research on the topic, and as such can be presented as valid facts. That is why you should care.

And yet again just no, you can read; N.G. Wilson, From Byzantium to Italy. Greek Studies in the Italian Renaissance.

I could go debunking everything you write; something that I am sure will be amusing. However if you wish to have a serious debate you will have to bring something to the table other than “I believe it is so”

[Risottia]

The European Union is basically a giant captive market for german exports and not much else.

I guess that's why the largest chunks of the British, Spanish, French and Italian exports go to other EU countries.

[Valendia]

No. The EU needs to consolidate its domestic affairs before admitting a state that would bring a massive amount of social problems.

[Risottia]

3. I still don't know what this "European cultural sphere" is.

Let's see:
1.most people can read an alphabet derived from the Greek one
2.most people live in political systems based on European political theories
3.most common international languages for trade and communication are European ones
4.more or less spherical

[Risottia]

No. The EU needs to consolidate its domestic affairs before admitting a state that would bring a massive amount of social problems.

What social problems, exactly?

[Starkiller101]

No. The EU needs to consolidate its domestic affairs before admitting a state that would bring a massive amount of social problems.

what social problems does turkey have

[Valendia]

No. The EU needs to consolidate its domestic affairs before admitting a state that would bring a massive amount of social problems.

What social problems, exactly?

The fact it is culturally heterogeneous compared to much of the EU. Not to mention the poverty.

[Kvatchdom]

No, an islamic nation with 2% of it's land in Europe doesn't belong in EU.