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Should this Federal shutdown be made permanent?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Should this Federal shutdown be made permanent?

Yes
78
22%
Some other time
11
3%
No
226
65%
Joke option
33
9%
 
Total votes : 348

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Vault 1
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Should this Federal shutdown be made permanent?

Postby Vault 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:12 am

Everyone's talking about it, and all we hear is everyone talking about the negatives.
I see where they're coming from. The shutdown was made very visible and, indeed, a temporary shutdown will by itself do more harm than good.

But let's look at the other side of the issue.
A shutdown federal government isn't going to start yet another BS war no one needs.
A shutdown federal government means internal espionage programs are suspended.
This shutdown applies to just that - the feds - not to actually vital state and local services.

Long-term, what little important is left will be picked up by the states. And long-term, no federal government means far less wastage of tax revenue. Such a dissolution would be perfectly amicable, not a breakup, so states would have no issues maintaining the status quo on most everything. It's not revolution, it's not an-cap, only a restructuring into a form more suited to the modern times.

Defense, to the extent that it's needed, can be handled just as well by a mutual agreement between the states, without even significant changes to the command structure - but with the added benefit of being actually used for defense, since 51% can no longer pull the other 49% into every conflict around the globe. It works for everyone else, and the recent troubles US is going through prove it isn't a special snowflake.
I know it's not going to happen, not this time at least, but we can talk in hypotheticals.

It would save a lot of tax dollars, make state elections meaningful, end the bleeding of successful states to support unsustainable economies, let someone tired of Republican BS policies or Democrat BS policies leave them behind. Everyone can run the politics they like, citizens will be free to pick out of the 51 sets of policies the one that suits them. Just leave the thing closed; it hasn't been doing any good for a long time, especially not in the last decades. Better still, turn it into a British Monarchy: a common symbol to keep, but no longer an absolute power, with real decision-making passed to the states and their people.

What do you think - is this shutdown actually an opportunity in disguise?

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:15 am

Vault 1 wrote:What do you think - is this shutdown actually an opportunity in disguise?


An opportunity for the USA never to exist again as a country.
An opportunity for sure, I don't know why the Americans should like it though.
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Aquafireland
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Postby Aquafireland » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:19 am

There's not even any more food checks going on. Of course I say no.
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Vault 1
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Postby Vault 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:23 am

Risottia wrote:An opportunity for the USA never to exist again as a country.
An opportunity for sure, I don't know why the Americans should like it though.

A country bound together by common culture, common language and common borders, just not by one all-powerful federal government, is still a country.

Will you consider an acquaintance from another state a foreigner just because decisions in DC are now made by state agreements rather than by a top-down system?

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Xsyne
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Postby Xsyne » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:25 am

An opportunity for the world economy to collapse.
An opportunity for civilization as we know it to collapse.
An opportunity for thermonuclear war.
An opportunity for the hairless ape that calls itself "man" to be purged from the world, ending once and for all the experiment of thought.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:28 am

Vault 1 wrote:
Risottia wrote:An opportunity for the USA never to exist again as a country.
An opportunity for sure, I don't know why the Americans should like it though.

A country bound together by common culture, common language and common borders, just not by one all-powerful federal government, is still a country.

Remove the federal government means removing common borders - as every State would have the prerogative of setting their own controls, border police, and regulations. Common language, there's no federal official language in the US, while States can independently decide to have one or more, and which one.

Will you consider an acquaintance from another state a foreigner just because decisions in DC are now made by state agreements rather than by a top-down system?

Yes. Just like a Swiss is a foreigner to an EU national because decisions that apply to both are made by agreements between Switzerland and the EU. The fact that all EU countries bordering Switzerland and Switzerland are all inside the Schengen Area doesn't make Switzerland a non-foreign territory to the EU.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:29 am

I'd wanna see what happens.

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Mkuki
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Postby Mkuki » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:33 am

make state elections meaningful

1. I don't think you understand the concept of federalism.
2. State elections have always been meaningful.

3. Why not just be straightforward about your "state's rights" position? It'd save a lot of time.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:36 am

Mkuki wrote:
make state elections meaningful

1. I don't think you understand the concept of federalism.
2. State elections have always been meaningful.

3. Why not just be straightforward about your "state's rights" position? It'd save a lot of time.

The State elections deserve some respect! They're working their ass off and all they get is some meaningless fling with the federal government.

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New Octopucta
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Postby New Octopucta » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:37 am

I guess it's an interesting situation. I'm sure there are a lot of poten-

Vault 1 wrote:This shutdown applies to just that - the feds - not to actually vital state and local services.

Oh, okay. You're just a Ron Paul Libertarian. Never mind.
Last edited by New Octopucta on Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Vault 1
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Postby Vault 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:39 am

Risottia wrote:Remove the federal government means removing common borders - as every State would have the prerogative of setting their own controls, border police, and regulations.

Citizens of the European Union have no trouble moving across the EU.
What makes you think it would be any different in the United States?

The Feds are shut down right now; do you experience any trouble at state borders as a result?
If the shutdown is made permanent, the individual states aren't going to start building fences and checkpoints; no one's interested in doing so. Nothing is going to change in this regard; status quo will simply keep going on and required agreements will eventually be established.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:39 am

Vault 1 wrote:What do you think - is this shutdown actually an opportunity in disguise?

I think don't you actually understand a thing about the federal government or this shutdown.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:40 am

Why is there a "joke option" included in the poll when "yes" is already there?
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:41 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Why is there a "joke option" included in the poll when "yes" is already there?

Hehe.

Nice.

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Vault 1
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Postby Vault 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:45 am

Mkuki wrote:1. I don't think you understand the concept of federalism.

I do. I simply don't support it; confederacy is a better form of government for a country with the size and the political diversity of the United States.

And an extension of a fed shutdown would be a relatively realistic and painless transition scenario.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:45 am

Vault 1 wrote:
Risottia wrote:Remove the federal government means removing common borders - as every State would have the prerogative of setting their own controls, border police, and regulations.

Citizens of the European Union have no trouble moving across the EU.

Wrong.
There are non-Schengen countries inside the EU. And parties to the Schengen Agreement have the option to leave it, or to suspend it temporarily, without asking for anyone else's permit.

What makes you think it would be any different in the United States?

Eh.

The Feds are shut down right now; do you experience any trouble at state borders as a result?

I wouldn't have a fucking clue, it's not like I cross borders between US States usually.

If the shutdown is made permanent, the individual states aren't going to start building fences and checkpoints;

Says who?

no one's interested in doing so.

Tell that to the political parties who want to "keep the immigrants out". Now, place a State who has an anti-immigrant policy next to a State with open-borders policies. Tadaa!

Nothing is going to change in this regard; status quo will simply keep going on and required agreements will eventually be established.

Sure. What's this theory, free market applied to international politics?
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Postby Petrovia- » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:51 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Why is there a "joke option" included in the poll when "yes" is already there?


:bow: Bravo.
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Vault 1
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Postby Vault 1 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:52 am

Risottia wrote:There are non-Schengen countries inside the EU. And parties to the Schengen Agreement have the option to leave it, or to suspend it temporarily, without asking for anyone else's permit.

As should the States, eventually.

Risottia wrote:Tell that to the political parties who want to "keep the immigrants out". Now, place a State who has an anti-immigrant policy next to a State with open-borders policies. Tadaa!

At some point in the future, I guess they might.
And while I personally consider these anti-immigrant policies stupid, I don't see why shouldn't people who want to fence themselves off in a gated community have such an option.

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Havenburgh
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Postby Havenburgh » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:52 am

america is going to hit the default button, making it an hell hole, then become an bureaucracy. sucks to be you guys.

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Postby Marquette of Pacific » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:53 am

Havenburgh wrote:america is going to hit the default button, making it an hell hole, then become an bureaucracy. sucks to be you guys.


Wow thanks Havey
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:54 am

Vault 1 wrote:
Risottia wrote:There are non-Schengen countries inside the EU. And parties to the Schengen Agreement have the option to leave it, or to suspend it temporarily, without asking for anyone else's permit.

As should the States, eventually.

So you now admit there would be the possibility of a State closing its borders. Something you denied earlier.

I think we're done here now.

Risottia wrote:Tell that to the political parties who want to "keep the immigrants out". Now, place a State who has an anti-immigrant policy next to a State with open-borders policies. Tadaa!

At some point in the future, I guess they might.
And while I personally consider these anti-immigrant policies stupid, I don't see why shouldn't people who want to fence themselves off in a gated community have such an option.


See above.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:55 am

Havenburgh wrote:america is going to hit the default button, making it an hell hole, then become an bureaucracy. sucks to be you guys.

And unlike Greece, the ECB isn't coming to save them.
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Socialist EU
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Postby Socialist EU » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:59 am

Vault 1 wrote:
Mkuki wrote:1. I don't think you understand the concept of federalism.

I do. I simply don't support it; confederacy is a better form of government for a country with the size and the political diversity of the United States.

And an extension of a fed shutdown would be a relatively realistic and painless transition scenario.


Comrade Risottia is correct. Anyway, I suspect its likely this will be over by the 17th October. If the US cannot pay its debts, the whole global economy goes down including global investers,(China's already downgraded its investment in the dollar) you really should have paid attention to ASB's posts.

At the end of the day the Tea Party do not understand how capitalism works, the rule of capital is maintained through government running a debt, I remember a Financial Times article reporting that all the major economies have been running debts for the last two centuries. Capitalism works through a credit orientated stimulation of the economy, thus allowing capital to go beyond its limits.
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Black Hand
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Postby Black Hand » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:59 am

Well..... glad to see the libertarians make the most of it. besides what you really want is a weak federal government, not the absence of one. and as long as john boehner manages to pull his out of his ass this will be resolved soon enough. (he won't put the budget to a vote and since he's speaker of the house no one else can)
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Postby Socialist EU » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:03 am

Havenburgh wrote:america is going to hit the default button, making it an hell hole, then become an bureaucracy. sucks to be you guys.


With a weak left and without a mass communist party, the only thing to come about from such a power vacuum is fascism and global war, the former Nazi Germany serves as a warning.
Egypt:
Spontaneous protests will not produce organisation, it is more likely to lead to an oppressive clampdown! There needs to be a long-term strategy to build the left towards..
-mass parties of the left
-mass trade unions
-mass left-wing publications

Europe
For a United socialist Europe under democratic working class rule.
For the unity of the working class across Europe and eventually* take power.
*'Towards a communist party of the EU'

Britain
For a voluntary federated democratic republic.

Scotland
Abstain on independence referendum, Salmond wants to keep within the union!

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