Russian Government to Fund Patriotic Video Games

[Baltenstein]

Patriotic Education. People aren't forced to play this, so this is just trying to show people how good Russia can be. I'm not even Russian and i want to play it already.
Anyway, i want to stress this again: People aren't forced to play it, so it isn't brainwashing.

People will be forced, however, to do without "ahistorical" *coughcough* games, according to the OP.

[Baltenstein]

What does NSG think about this? Brainwashing or Patriotic Education?

The US does this all the time. Tell me one good American-made game where the United States is the bad guy? Or where the United States is wrong and the characters have to fight to make it right? So Russia can do it to. Hell, let France do it as well. They have more balls than we do ever since Francois Hollande. (sorry if I mispronounced his name.)

There are plenty of US-made games and movies where the US/US-affiliated values/US-expys are either satirized, criticized or portrayed as flat-out bad guys. Game examples include Bioshock, Fallout or Spec Ops: The Line. Basically all scenarios that include "big government/big business" conspiracies or "our-society-is-living-a-lie" messages.
Granted, Russian developers are perfectly capable of societal self-criticism as well, as we can see with the Metro 2033 universe.

[Mussoliniopoli]

Any proper historical book. I would also recommend Diplomacy by Kissinger it discusses this problem in some depth.

*adds book to reading list*

Thank you

It is a very interesting read on the evolution of Realpolitik in regards to diplomacy in Europe. It is pretty fascinating up until the Cold War where it begins to bog down in biases by Kissinger. Still very interesting in regards to his views of Stalin from a diplomatic standpoint. Kissinger considers him much more realistic in diplomacy than any other previous attempts by the Soviets which was bogged down in ideology instead of the real world.

[Sibator]

Actually the highest estimate I have seen is 100 million, which is rather ludicrous, but you should also realize that him killing ~20-30 million his whole life wouldn't be too difficult to achieve since he didn't only control the USSR during WW2.

Holodomor was genocide because the famines were relatively forced. Farmers and kulaks who resisted collectivization were either shot or starved, and much of the starvation in the Ukraine was knowingly and deliberately enforced. There was starvation elsewhere, and in places like Belarus it was partly forced as well, but most of the starvations that resulted in massive amounts of deaths were targeted at specific ethnic groups in order to remove any chance of a revolt. Unfortunately, it actually worked.

Stalin killing 100 million Ukrainians is not only ludicrous, but impossible, since the population of the Ukrainian SSR was 60 million-ish in the early 30's.

There was starvation in the entire Soviet Union, outside of areas where collectivization didn't reach like the remote parts of Central Asia. Stalin using the famine of the 30's to target one specific group is probably the least efficient genocide in the history of mankind. That would be like Hitler gassing Berlin to wipe out the Jews. Stalin was crazy and paranoid, but not stupid. And he was probably less crazy and paranoid in the early 30's than he later became.

I've had two American professors of Russian history speak on the subject. Neither of them had any good things to say about Stalin personally, but neither of them thought of Holodomor as an intentional genocide. Again, both put the cause down to mismanagement and incompetence, the continued enforcement of the failed policies of collectivization.

I never said Stalin killed 100 million Ukrainians, I said the highest amount for Stalin's total ill count was 100 million, which I disagree with.

As I also asserted I know there was other starvation in the Soviet Union, but you are ignoring the entire context of the famine. The famine was not intentionally started with the idea of eliminating Ukrainians(although Stalin did want to break kulak power throughout the USSR with collectivization) but it was continued when the collectivization failed with the intention of eliminating kulak power and Ukrainian rebellion. Once Stalin found out the collectivization was killing millions(and was in fact mainly occurring in the heavily agricultural Ukraine) he continued the policy without a care in the world, and since it was breaking the backs of the Ukrainian farmer class(factory workers were given significantly more food the Ukrainian farmers. Hell, gulag prisoners got more food than farmers did) he believed that the kill count was largely positive. It was less effective than outright execution, but Stalin didn't want to eliminate the entire Ukrainian ethnicity, he wanted to break their power.

Stalin actually got less paranoid on domestic matters like that over time. When he took power he was constantly afraid of people plotting to kill him and thought the Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Poles and other minorities were going to revolt.

Both the book I cited and others I have read agree with me on the subject.

[Shofercia]

Patriotic Education. People aren't forced to play this, so this is just trying to show people how good Russia can be. I'm not even Russian and i want to play it already.
Anyway, i want to stress this again: People aren't forced to play it, so it isn't brainwashing.

People will be forced, however, to do without "ahistorical" *coughcough* games, according to the OP.

As OMG mentioned, the writer of the article misinterpreted the "ahistorical" part. Relic pulled the game on their own. If someone fucks with our history, we'll boycott their ass, but the call's other, not the government's.

[Shofercia]

Stalin wanted to form a coalition to stop Hitler from taking Prague. It was Chamberlain who bailed Hitler out, and handed Prague to him on a silver platter. Not wanting another Open Season against the USSR, Stalin opted to ally with Hitler. Yes, it was a poor decision and backfired, but let's not pretend that Stalin and Hitler were BFFs prior to the latter part of 1938.

Not sure about the rest of your rant, but I doubt it's more credible than your Stalin-Hitler BBF claim.

If they would have both been nice and friendly to each other, the USSR wouldn't have given 2 shits about the Holocaust, etc. as long as they would've had something to gain. Just as the West did with the USSR by choosing to ignore the Soviet war crimes because the Nazis had been defeated and everyone was happy.

How exactly does it address my point that Stalin and Hitler weren't BFFs prior to above mentioned date? I mean don't get me wrong, it's certainly a jab at the USSR, but again, how does that address what my point?

[Shofercia]

Stalin killing 100 million Ukrainians is not only ludicrous, but impossible, since the population of the Ukrainian SSR was 60 million-ish in the early 30's.

There was starvation in the entire Soviet Union, outside of areas where collectivization didn't reach like the remote parts of Central Asia. Stalin using the famine of the 30's to target one specific group is probably the least efficient genocide in the history of mankind. That would be like Hitler gassing Berlin to wipe out the Jews. Stalin was crazy and paranoid, but not stupid. And he was probably less crazy and paranoid in the early 30's than he later became.

I've had two American professors of Russian history speak on the subject. Neither of them had any good things to say about Stalin personally, but neither of them thought of Holodomor as an intentional genocide. Again, both put the cause down to mismanagement and incompetence, the continued enforcement of the failed policies of collectivization.

I never said Stalin killed 100 million Ukrainians, I said the highest amount for Stalin's total ill count was 100 million, which I disagree with.

As I also asserted I know there was other starvation in the Soviet Union, but you are ignoring the entire context of the famine. The famine was not intentionally started with the idea of eliminating Ukrainians(although Stalin did want to break kulak power throughout the USSR with collectivization) but it was continued when the collectivization failed with the intention of eliminating kulak power and Ukrainian rebellion. Once Stalin found out the collectivization was killing millions(and was in fact mainly occurring in the heavily agricultural Ukraine) he continued the policy without a care in the world, and since it was breaking the backs of the Ukrainian farmer class(factory workers were given significantly more food the Ukrainian farmers. Hell, gulag prisoners got more food than farmers did) he believed that the kill count was largely positive. It was less effective than outright execution, but Stalin didn't want to eliminate the entire Ukrainian ethnicity, he wanted to break their power.

Stalin actually got less paranoid on domestic matters like that over time. When he took power he was constantly afraid of people plotting to kill him and thought the Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Poles and other minorities were going to revolt.

Both the book I cited and others I have read agree with me on the subject.

3.9 million is Ukraine Gov't. estimate. The one that was anti-Russian when said estimate was made. 7.5 mil is on the high end for all of Collectivization, not just the Holodomor. The way you get such ridiculous estimates as 100 million, is those who make said estimates believe that everyone who was killed was going to have lots and lots of babies, and count said babies as part of their estimates, despite the fact that such babies weren't even conceived, i.e. sperm didn't even meet egg.

[Shofercia]

*adds book to reading list*

Thank you

It is a very interesting read on the evolution of Realpolitik in regards to diplomacy in Europe. It is pretty fascinating up until the Cold War where it begins to bog down in biases by Kissinger. Still very interesting in regards to his views of Stalin from a diplomatic standpoint. Kissinger considers him much more realistic in diplomacy than any other previous attempts by the Soviets which was bogged down in ideology instead of the real world.

That's a pretty good analysis of it, thank you

Reminds me of the History of Russia written by Karamzin, which ended in prior to most of the pre-Petrine Romanov Reign, so as to avoid touching any controversial Romanov Issues. To date, this is one of the best Histories of Russia that we have.

[Geilinor]

What does NSG think about this? Brainwashing or Patriotic Education?

The US does this all the time. Tell me one good American-made game where the United States is the bad guy? Or where the United States is wrong and the characters have to fight to make it right? So Russia can do it to.

The US government doesn't sponsor those games though.

[Hornesia]

americas army

My first thought.

[Hornesia]

The US does this all the time. Tell me one good American-made game where the United States is the bad guy? Or where the United States is wrong and the characters have to fight to make it right? So Russia can do it to.

The US government doesn't sponsor those games though.

They sponsor America's Army.

[Geilinor]

The US government doesn't sponsor those games though.

They sponsor America's Army.

The game developers sponsor the US, but I'm saying that the US government doesn't directly pay developers to make propaganda.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

They sponsor America's Army.

The game developers sponsor the US, but I'm saying that the US government doesn't directly pay developers to make propaganda.

So is your claim if the US military pays people to develop a game (defense funds coming from the government of course) to promotes itself its not propaganda, but if the Russia defense ministry dose it too it is propaganda?

[Blasveck]

What does NSG think about this? Brainwashing or Patriotic Education?

The US does this all the time. Tell me one good American-made game where the United States is the bad guy? Or where the United States is wrong and the characters have to fight to make it right? So Russia can do it to. Hell, let France do it as well. They have more balls than we do ever since Francois Hollande. (sorry if I mispronounced his name.)

Spec Ops: The Line, I believe.

[TotallyNotEvilLand]

So? They (and Arabs) have been the main villains of every "oober-realistick" video game ever made since Nazis went out of style. Not all Russians are bad guys. Let that be reflected in fiction for once.

[East Ormania]

Patriotic Education. People aren't forced to play this, so this is just trying to show people how good Russia can be. I'm not even Russian and i want to play it already.
Anyway, i want to stress this again: People aren't forced to play it, so it isn't brainwashing.

People will be forced, however, to do without "ahistorical" *coughcough* games, according to the OP.

But if i want to declare, say, The Da Vince Code a completely accurate archeological guide, that doesn't mean i am brainwashing people into believing me. That doesn't change people's minds if they don't just outright prohibit people from playing the "Innacurate" games.

[Libertarian California]

What does NSG think about this? Brainwashing or Patriotic Education?

The US does this all the time. Tell me one good American-made game where the United States is the bad guy? Or where the United States is wrong and the characters have to fight to make it right? So Russia can do it to. Hell, let France do it as well. They have more balls than we do ever since Francois Hollande. (sorry if I mispronounced his name.)

Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2.

If you actually play the game, you'll realize that an American general is the bad guy, and the Russians were scapegoats.

[Imperium Sidhicum]

Don't forget - anything in this world is only wrong and immoral if someone other than USA does it.

Compared to the refined and subtle American propaganda that permeates every aspect of US-made media, however, Russian propaganda generally seems somewhat blatant and heavy-handed. I imagine that would be the case with these games too.

[Shofercia]

Don't forget - anything in this world is only wrong and immoral if someone other than USA does it.

Compared to the refined and subtle American propaganda that permeates every aspect of US-made media, however, Russian propaganda generally seems somewhat blatant and heavy-handed. I imagine that would be the case with these games too.

I wouldn't say heavy-handed, at least not usually, but yeah, it's blatant. I think most Russians want it to be blatant. If US was Russia, Fox News would be GOP Central, MSNBC would be Democrat Central and CNN would be Corporate News Network.

[Sibator]

I never said Stalin killed 100 million Ukrainians, I said the highest amount for Stalin's total ill count was 100 million, which I disagree with.

As I also asserted I know there was other starvation in the Soviet Union, but you are ignoring the entire context of the famine. The famine was not intentionally started with the idea of eliminating Ukrainians(although Stalin did want to break kulak power throughout the USSR with collectivization) but it was continued when the collectivization failed with the intention of eliminating kulak power and Ukrainian rebellion. Once Stalin found out the collectivization was killing millions(and was in fact mainly occurring in the heavily agricultural Ukraine) he continued the policy without a care in the world, and since it was breaking the backs of the Ukrainian farmer class(factory workers were given significantly more food the Ukrainian farmers. Hell, gulag prisoners got more food than farmers did) he believed that the kill count was largely positive. It was less effective than outright execution, but Stalin didn't want to eliminate the entire Ukrainian ethnicity, he wanted to break their power.

Stalin actually got less paranoid on domestic matters like that over time. When he took power he was constantly afraid of people plotting to kill him and thought the Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Poles and other minorities were going to revolt.

Both the book I cited and others I have read agree with me on the subject.

3.9 million is Ukraine Gov't. estimate. The one that was anti-Russian when said estimate was made. 7.5 mil is on the high end for all of Collectivization, not just the Holodomor. The way you get such ridiculous estimates as 100 million, is those who make said estimates believe that everyone who was killed was going to have lots and lots of babies, and count said babies as part of their estimates, despite the fact that such babies weren't even conceived, i.e. sperm didn't even meet egg.

Around ten million died under his regime.

"Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime". That is the most commonly used theory I believe.

The high end 100 million estimates I have seen all came before the fall of the USSR and therefore were fairly poorly researched. As I said, they're ludicrous.

[Gauthier]

Don't forget - anything in this world is only wrong and immoral if someone other than USA does it.

Compared to the refined and subtle American propaganda that permeates every aspect of US-made media, however, Russian propaganda generally seems somewhat blatant and heavy-handed. I imagine that would be the case with these games too.

Maybe they'll make a game called Putinator.

[Shofercia]

3.9 million is Ukraine Gov't. estimate. The one that was anti-Russian when said estimate was made. 7.5 mil is on the high end for all of Collectivization, not just the Holodomor. The way you get such ridiculous estimates as 100 million, is those who make said estimates believe that everyone who was killed was going to have lots and lots of babies, and count said babies as part of their estimates, despite the fact that such babies weren't even conceived, i.e. sperm didn't even meet egg.

Around ten million died under his regime.

"Accordingly, if famine victims are included, a minimum of around 10 million deaths—6 million from famine and 4 million from other causes—are attributable to the regime". That is the most commonly used theory I believe.

The high end 100 million estimates I have seen all came before the fall of the USSR and therefore were fairly poorly researched. As I said, they're ludicrous.

Well if you place Gulags, Purges and Collectivization together, then yes, 10 mil would be about right.

[Shofercia]

Don't forget - anything in this world is only wrong and immoral if someone other than USA does it.

Compared to the refined and subtle American propaganda that permeates every aspect of US-made media, however, Russian propaganda generally seems somewhat blatant and heavy-handed. I imagine that would be the case with these games too.

Maybe they'll make a game called Putinator.

Mission one: Khodorkovsky is trying to steal from you. How do you wish to deal with him?
Mission two: Your popularity rating is falling. Quickly, provide supplies to the needy to solve the problem!
Mission three: You realize that Russians want fair elections. You also have popular support, and not quite the brightest bunch running against you. Fair or rigged?
Mission four: Your term limits are up. Handpick your successor!
Mission five: Some Stalin wannabe attacked the peacekeepers. Make sure you tell Bush that you "invaded" the other Georgia!
Mission six: You have phenomenal approval rating. Do you wish to tackle the Mafia, or raise your term limits?
Mission seven: Something in America crashed, and this time it affected Russia. Fix the economy while blaming Gringos!
Mission eight: Your handpicked successor not doing so well. He even praised Gorbafool. Take as many manly photos as you can!
Mission nine: Your handpicked successor still not doing well, and elections are up. Fair or rigged?
Mission ten: Your people demand quality education, and you have no choice but to give it to them. Raise as many teacher salaries as you can!

[Souriya Al-Assad]

Don't forget - anything in this world is only wrong and immoral if someone other than USA does it.

Compared to the refined and subtle American propaganda that permeates every aspect of US-made media, however, Russian propaganda generally seems somewhat blatant and heavy-handed. I imagine that would be the case with these games too.

Maybe they'll make a game called Putinator.

Mission One: Resurrect Mother Russia from the Gorbinator terminator as well as the Yeltsinterminator.
Mission Two: Kick the arse of Bandar's Qutbist mercenaries to save Chechen, Dagestani, Ingushetian civilian lives
Mission Three: Prevent the Hitlerist, Saud, Musevini inspired Georgian twat from committing genocide against Ossetians & Abkhazians
Mission Four: Counter imperialist media by demonstrating in photos pictures of manly accomplishments to remind them of your glorious career; continue making Russia stronger, resurrect her from the Capitalist Cesspool savagery of the 1990s utilising some slightly Nasserist-Socialist inspired-or-similar policies to acheive this; fight the oligarchs; restore Russia's living conditions to USSR pinnacle times thenceforth improve from there; make Russia into a gobsmacking Resistance military nation of the future utilising T-99s amongst other units
Mission Five: Defend Syria from neo-colonialist invasion, mobilise warships along the coast
Mission Six: Save Transnistria from occupation as well as invasion
Mission Seven: Restore Jugoslavija
Mission Eight: Create the Bear's Republican Guards, kick some Prince Bandar arse in a series of amphibious Resistance invasions commanded by The Putin Himself
Mission Nine: Say, I win, for the win.
Mission Ten: Apologise to Mother Iran for the epic fail that was Medvedev, promise to give them some C-400s instead of C-300s (whilst finalising your covert assistance in helping them build the Bavar-373 air defence, a domesticised C-300PMU2/V/V4/VM system). Give Iran some T-90MS tanks, some Sukhoi PAK FAs too. Help Iran finalise the Qaher-313 into gobsmacking Resistance success.
Mission Eleven: Rescue Aisha al-Qadhafi from Oman to help her recover the Jamahiriya before Qutbists sink it into the gutter
Mission Twelve: Help Best Korea by subsidising its defence budget
Mission Thirteen: Say 'Hasta la Victoria Siempre' whilst providing Cuba some nukes to secure their sovereignty
Mission Penultimate: Arm an anti-Zionist Palestinian-Israeli joint uprising.
Mission Ultra: No One Mossads With the Assad Lest Ye Get Putined

[L Ron Cupboard]

I think there could be a positive in this if they develop uniquely Russian original games, rather than just produce rip-offs of popular games but with a Russian slant.