The Hitler Speech They Don't Want You To Hear

[Nevanmaa]

Germans are oppressed by Poles = Bad

Jews, Gypsies, etc oppressed by the Germans = Huh? What's that?

Ever heard of the Haavara Agreement, where Germany and Zionists collaborated in an effort to move Jews back to their ancient homeland, Palestine. Holocaust only happened after the foreign powers pushed Germany too far; had the Soviets, Poles and Westerners not been hellbent on destroying Germany, holocaust wouldn't have happened.

Until he decided to go the KILL THEM WITH FIRE route.

Yes, he decided to go with that route after Poles refused to cede German majority areas and stopped murdering Germans. Who would've thought that doing dumb shit like that would make Hitler mad?

And you sympathize with an anti-democratic dictatorship said to be worse than any of those put together that essentially is one of the most infamous parts of the narrative that is human history?

Nazi Germany before the war was not any more oppressive than Poland.

Soviets kill a bunch of Poles in Katyn = OMG HOW EVIL!

Nazis kill off millions of people and work with masterminds behind the Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, Bataan Death March, etc = Hippo totally sympathizes with them.

Except that that's not the case and you're just putting words in my mouth. We're talking about reasons that led to WWII, not WWII itself. Events of Katyn were evil because they were designed to destroy the Poles' will to fight by annihilating Polish leadership and intelligentsia. Nazis' crimes mustn't be tolerated either, but the fact is that those crimes wouldn't have happened if the Soviets, Poles and Westerners had known their place and had stopped trying to undermine German sovereignty before WWII.

Take a look at the video in OP's post. Hitler explains various events where the Western powers, especially the US, attempted to meddle with German internal affairs.

Like Hitler was any better?

In this case, intefering with Germany's internal affairs, embargoes and trying to portray Germany in a hostile light in an attempt to create popular support for military actions against Germany can be considered "warmongering".

I think Hitler did a great job on his own portraying Germany in a hostile light, what with his Nuremberg Laws, ending Austrian and Czechoslovak independence, framing the Polish for an attack on that radio station, rounding up dissidents (wasn't Scholl underage when her head was chopped off?), etc.[/quote]

[Ganos Lao]

Ever heard of the Haavara Agreement, where Germany and Zionists collaborated in an effort to move Jews back to their ancient homeland, Palestine. Holocaust only happened after the foreign powers pushed Germany too far; had the Soviets, Poles and Westerners not been hellbent on destroying Germany, holocaust wouldn't have happened.

They pushed Germany too far over things that had nothing to do with the Jews, so the Germans decided, fuck it, we'll kill the Jews off to vent?

Does this really make sense to you?

Why not simply, gee, I don't know, not kill any Jews in the first place?

Also, you claim to be a defender of personal liberty and property.

Why then do you say nothing about the Nazis committing Kristallnacht and instituting the Nuremburg Laws?

Yes, he decided to go with that route after Poles refused to cede German majority areas and stopped murdering Germans. Who would've thought that doing dumb shit like that would make Hitler mad?

So all those innocents (because I highly doubt every single Pole was singing KILL THE GERMAN) were rightfully damned to their potential fate because of what a handful of bureaucrats did?

Nazi Germany before the war was not any more oppressive than Poland.

Except that that's not the case and you're just putting words in my mouth. We're talking about reasons that led to WWII, not WWII itself. Events of Katyn were evil because they were designed to destroy the Poles' will to fight by annihilating Polish leadership and intelligentsia. Nazis' crimes mustn't be tolerated either, but the fact is that those crimes wouldn't have happened if the Soviets, Poles and Westerners had known their place and had stopped trying to undermine German sovereignty before WWII.

Return to my earlier point. Why would the Germans just decide to kill off the Jews to vent? Why would they desire to enslave and exterminate the Slavic peoples to vent? You make it sound like every single Slav, Jew, anyone else in the iron sights of a Nazi gun was a supporter of this supposed conspiracy. Even if this said conspiracy existed, why did little girls like Anne Frank get carted off to the death camps? Are we supposed to assume Anne Frank and others like her were burdened with the "sins" of others which they had nothing to do with?

You say we should not tolerate the crimes of the Nazis, but you're the same damn guy who said they should've won World War II.

How can you say "don't tolerate what they did" but say "hey, I'd tolerate a victory by the exact same people"?

Putting words in your mouth? I'm merely highlighting how you've got a lot of holes in your arguments.

[Nevanmaa]

Which you haven't provided a source for and that I've never heard anything remotely concrete on, I might add.

Of course you haven't, you might doubt the official version of the events if you had heard about it!

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... opsis.html

Source that that was "the will of the people" (beyond Hitler's assertions, obviously)?

The fact that the Free State of Danzig was ruled by the DNVP and NSDAP during its existence, and both of those parties wanted Danzig to join. Germany.

They weren't banned. They were just meaningless.

Yes they were. Enabling Act banned all other political parties except the NSDAP... and the Union of Poles in Germany.

Yeah, he was really willing to compromise with all the the aggression and invasion and faking a Polish attack and stuff.

Yes, after decades of Polish oppression of the German minority and ignoring the will of the people.

...You're not fucking seriously saying that.
You do realize that under the Nazi racial laws, all those Polish Germans were probably gassed to death, right? Or at the very least, put in the camps?

Yes, after the WWII began. Once again, this could've been averted had the Poles not been such dicks towards Germans.

Doesn't that entitle russia to get their 1918 border back too?

No, because there were no ethnic Russians who wanted to join the Soviet Union in the area of the Second Republic of Poland.

Still doesn't justify it, your pro-Nazi assessment of the situation also noted.

It kinda does, what makes pre-war Germany any worse than pre-war Hungary or pre-war Germany? Nothing, except modern revisionist left-wing historical "research".

Stalin became just as culpable for WW2 literally six days before the Invasion of Poland (which was prefaced a solid six years of German aggression).

What Stalin did there was see what was inevitable (Germany starting a new European land war and conquering Poland) and essentially deciding to bandwagon onto it to get something out of it. That's not equal culpability; that's just opportunism on the back of someone else's aggression.
Doesn't really make sense.

Six years of German aggression? What? Germany was anything but aggressive towards Poland, they just wanted the areas stolen from by the Treaty of Versailles back where the population wanted to rejoin Germany as well.

And no, Stalin enabled and essentially allowed WWII to begin by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. Jesus christ, if two parties sign a treaty partitioning Eastern Europe, why is only the other party responsible? Don't you understand how illogical your left-wing revisionist world view is?

Germany alone absolutely was responsible for WW1.

And this is when I stopped taking you seriously.

Germany was the one insisting that the Austrians treat the Serbs shittily. Germany was the one looking for an excuse for a land war against Russia. Germany was the one angling for Austria to demand impossible things out of Serbia in the aftermath of Ferdinand's death, that everybody knew the Serbs couldn't accept. And the Germans knew this would start a war with Russia as a result, with France coming in too.
If Germany hadn't intervened, Austria probably wouldn't have gone to war with Serbia, and the whole catastrophic chain of events would have been avoided. Read the letters send by Hotzendorf, Bethman-Hollweg, and the Kaiser - they were fucking dancing in their offices at the prospect of finally having an excuse to go to war with Russia, and demanding that the Austrians go and invade Serbia right damn now.

Balkans was a powderkeg waiting to explode and Germany had nothing to do with it, except being an ally of Austria-Hungary. I'd also like some sources on Germans forcing Austrians to treat the Serbian minority badly.

All parties involved were equally responsible for WWI, as the entire war began due to entangling alliance politic. Shiftign the blame on a single country is a clear display of historical ignorance.

This really should go without saying, but I'm not going to take Hitler's word for it.

You've taken Stalin's word, so why not Hitler's? You can find proof for all his claims, the US did establish an embargo on German goods, freeze German assets in the US and publicly condemn Germany before the war.

...The entire U-Boat campaign? Coupled with the surface raiders?

You're confused, we're talking about interwar era here, Germany did not sink anything during the period of 1933-1939.

Justified.

No, it wasn't. Interfering in Germany's internal affairs led to WWII.

Something both sides were guilty of.

Germany hadn't embargoed any country during the period of 1933-1939.

An attempt to create popular support for something that turned out to be justified due to German aggression, entirely justified for the entire world to see the second the first concentration camp was opened up, was hardly a crime.
Also, apparently, "general warmongering" was just repeating your first two points.
Okay.

"German aggression, German aggression". There was no such thing as German aggression until foreign powers drove Hitler too far and he was left with no choice but to rescue German minority from Poles by force. Had the international community refrained from attacks on German sovereignty, WWII wouldn't have taken place.

[Ganos Lao]

And no, Stalin enabled and essentially allowed WWII to begin by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty. Jesus christ, if two parties sign a treaty partitioning Eastern Europe, why is only the other party responsible? Don't you understand how illogical your left-wing revisionist world view is?

I decided to just cut the fat off the meat and hit up this little piece here.

If two parties oppress people, why is only one party responsible? Why is it that you consistently back up the Nazis (to the point of saying they should've won; even though you're on record here as saying their crimes shouldn't be tolerated and, in fact, by saying they should've won, you're essentially tolerating their crimes, since the Nazis behind said crimes had an all or bust mentality) even though they did the same exact shit you bash the Soviets, Poles, etc for?

Damn, I can't contain myself....

There was no such thing as German aggression until foreign powers drove Hitler too far

Czechoslovakia ring a bell? What drove Hitler so far that he had to annex the rest of their country?

Don't you understand how illogical your right-wing hypocritical world view is?

But of course you probably don't.

You're just Hippostania, one of the best professional victims on this forum.

[Hopeless]

I never thought I'd ever meet a holocaust denier.

I don't denie the Holocaust.

I like Israel.

But in my opinion it's hard to believe that 11 million have been killed in 5 years.

Well it seems quite possible when over 60 million people died in the 6 years of world war 2...i dont see the point of arguing the figures anyway, genocide is an atrocity, Rwanda in 1994 ended up with millions of dead but that does not make it any less evil, the reason people are more on Hitlers case is because of his approach to wiping them out, and it being world war 2 scenario that it was discovered, and to stay with the real topic thread the economic policies were horrible, but the country of Germany is incredible to have done as well as it did, not to mention having been practically destroyed in both world wars to have bounced back to be the economic power they are now, that is from the people though and subsequent policies, not Hitler policies.

[Parone92]

-snip-

Let me recommend a few books for you to read:
A boy at war
Encyclopedia of the United States at war
^Two books that revealed a lot about WWII to me.

If possible, find other books to read about the second world war. Heck hitler himself wrote a book when he was in prison which would provide more support towards what Ganos Leo is saying. In short, pick up a book and read. Know what the fuck you're talking about or do something else productive, so you can quit making yourself look foolish on the internet. Watch grass grow, that's more productive.

[Nevanmaa]

Wasn't going to happen and wasn't even fair to ask. They lost it because of their own idiot aggression.

I'm glad that you admit that you hate democracy. You and Stalin would have a lot in common, neither seems to care about the will of the people.

Again, no source still.

Already posted in my previous post.

Doesn't seem likely and doesn't really make sense. I'd like a source on this, too.

German minority in Poland

There are no maps of Russian minority in Poland because no such thing existed in any signficant numbers. Congress Poland was entirely Polish, next to no Russians immgrated there.

Roosevelt wasn't "the West".

You can't argue that the prevailing tide of thought regarding Nazi Germany for pretty much the entire time until after the Czech annexation was appeasement.

He was the leader of the Western world though.

Yes, and the appeasement worked just fine. Hitler's goal was to unify the German people under a single German nation state and to correct to unjust territorial losses of the Treaty of Versailles.

So 10% of your country is worth all of Europe's non-Aryan minorities dead, eh?

We're not responsible for that, we wanted to stay neutral but the Soviets attacked us. But they were just going to liburate us, right? Damn us evil Finns for fighting against the Stalin Liberation Machine!

[Parone92]

I have no comment regarding the economic policies. I actually thought from before that Germany under his rule had turned out a better economy than under weimar republic, albeit it was a war economy.

[Ganos Lao]

I'm glad that you admit that you hate democracy. You and Stalin would have a lot in common, neither seems to care about the will of the people.

A guy who says the Nazis should've won World War II (because "Finland would be better off") claims that I hate democracy?

Again, no source still.

It's cute that you are editing my posts in this fashion, but I think that, if you need a source for what Hans Frank and them were up to, you could easily take up Parone's advice and open up a book.

There are no maps of Russian minority in Poland because no such thing existed in any signficant numbers. Congress Poland was entirely Polish, next to no Russians immgrated there

I love how you keep shifting the goalposts in an attempt to basically try to get away from my point (like how you conveniently ignore the hypocrisy of saying the Nazis should've won/we shouldn't tolerate their crimes).

My point?

At the basic level, the most basic level, the seizure of territory in general, why is it that Germany should have been allowed to do it (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918") but when one looks at Russia marching into Finland, it's wrong to you when essentially by your very same logic (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918"), it should be A-OK?

But they were just going to liburate us, right? Damn us evil Finns for fighting against the Stalin Liberation Machine!

I think it's cute how you think people who criticize you are really closet Stalinists who get a hard on for the Yezhovshchina, but that's not at all the case.

[Wind in the Willows]

Hitler's economic policies were utter shit.

/thread

That's your opinion.

[Agritum]

Hitler's economic policies were utter shit.

/thread

That's your opinion.

No, that's fact. It's kinda the reason for why the Germans tended to ransack all the gold and other objects of value in occupied countries.

[Baltenstein]

I'm glad that you admit that you hate democracy. You and Stalin would have a lot in common, neither seems to care about the will of the people.

Hippo, my man, I'm not sure if you should accuse others of lacking a democratic conscience, what with you being a Nazi sympathizer and all.

There are no maps of Russian minority in Poland because no such thing existed in any signficant numbers. Congress Poland was entirely Polish, next to no Russians immgrated there.

Actually, demographic maps of pre-war Poland are easily available. Note how almost none of the territories seized by the Soviets were majority-Polish - while, on the other hand, almost all of the territories seized by the Germans were?

He was the leader of the Western world though.

There was no "leader of the Western World" back then. The world was quite multipolar.

We're not responsible for that, we wanted to stay neutral but the Soviets attacked us. But they were just going to liburate us, right? Damn us evil Finns for fighting against the Stalin Liberation Machine!

The Finns back then were saner than you, in that they didn't feel the need to still stand at Nazi Germany's side when it's defeat was already certain.

[The Dauphinity of Cognito]

Hitlers policy's were rubbish, economically, because he just stole other people's wealth; socially because he brainwashed a nation into the idea that killing millions of people is acceptable, and diplomatically.... Okay maybe he was quite clever diplomatically and politically because nobody batted an eyelid, even when he turned the Weimar REPUBLIC into a dictatorship, untill he invaded Poland. Overall he has an horrific, and he was also a crystal meth user too.... Which explains a lot....

[Nevanmaa]

I love how you keep shifting the goalposts in an attempt to basically try to get away from my point (like how you conveniently ignore the hypocrisy of saying the Nazis should've won/we shouldn't tolerate their crimes).

My point?

At the basic level, the most basic level, the seizure of territory in general, why is it that Germany should have been allowed to do it (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918") but when one looks at Russia marching into Finland, it's wrong to you when essentially by your very same logic (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918"), it should be A-OK?

This discussion isn't going to anywhere because there is something you don't understand.

German minority (majority in some areas) in Poland wanted to be a part of Germany.
Nobody in Finland wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union. There was no sizable Russian minority anywhere.

The people of Danzig voted to join Germany and Poland denied their right to self-determination. Why don't you care about those people? Oh right, because you don't like democracy.

[Yorkopolis]

Hitler also plotted to wreak havoc on Polish demographics.

Which indeed was not acceptable. However, this entire episode could've been averted had Poland ceded the German majority areas back to Germany and had stopped oppressing the German minority in Poland.

The Nazis inherently viewed the Polish - and other Slavic non-"Aryan" people - as Untermenschen. Denying so is basically excusing the Nazis.

[quote

Germany invades territories that belonged to it before 1918 = Good.

Russia invades territories that belonged to it before 1918 = Bad.

Nice logic, Hippo.

German portion of Poland was home to a significant German minority. Russian portion of Poland (so called Congress Poland) had no Russians and was almost entirely Polish. See my point?[/quote]
There's a Dutch portion of Germany that is home to a significant Dutch minority. Does this mean we Dutch should annex those parts of Germany? You're probably gonna say no, because Germany is your free-market paradise led by Adolf Angela Hitler Merkel.

Western nations for constant intervention in German internal affairs, embargoes and general warmongering against Germany before 1939. Roosevelt was especially responsible for this, thus he can be said to be one of the key reasons behind the start of WWII.

Yeah, who'd have thought that the guys behind appeasement were real warmongers. Poor Nazis. Having to contend with nosy goody-goods while plotting the subjugation of Europe. It must have been hard on them.

Roosevelt was anything but an appeaser.

And yeah, I'm glad that the Soviets prevented Germany's ebul subjugation of Europe. I'm so glad they saved us and took Viipuri! Thank you so much Soviets for kicking those ebul nazee germans out and letting us lose tenth of our country's land!

I don't give a flying fuck about some Finnish city somewhere that was taken over 60 years ago, what I do give a fuck about is that my people don't need to speak German and that Jews and other minorities are still accepted here instead of having been genocided long ago as Untermenschen. If you could actually make an argument instead of ultranationalist bullshit that basically amounts to "omg dey took our land dey should pay" then maybe I would even consider replying, but I can't give two fucks about that ultranationalist bullshit that I've been having to listen to for too long now. Those Finnish cities are now majority-Russian, and have no plans to secede from Russia, therefore Finland has no claims on those cities. The end. RIP. Finito.

Germans are oppressed by Poles = Bad

Jews, Gypsies, etc oppressed by the Germans = Huh? What's that?

Ever heard of the Haavara Agreement, where Germany and Zionists collaborated in an effort to move Jews back to their ancient homeland, Palestine. Holocaust only happened after the foreign powers pushed Germany too far; had the Soviets, Poles and Westerners not been hellbent on destroying Germany, holocaust wouldn't have happened.

I know the Haavara Agreement, but have you ever heard of the Wannsee Conference, the Endlösung, or anything like that? Sounds like you haven't, because you're clearly excusing the Holocaust here.

Until he decided to go the KILL THEM WITH FIRE route.

Yes, he decided to go with that route after Poles refused to cede German majority areas and stopped murdering Germans. Who would've thought that doing dumb shit like that would make Hitler mad?

Got a source for your bullshit "OMG POLEZ KILLED GERMANZ"? No? Then, move on, I shall.

And you sympathize with an anti-democratic dictatorship said to be worse than any of those put together that essentially is one of the most infamous parts of the narrative that is human history?

Nazi Germany before the war was not any more oppressive than Poland.

Source this flying bullshit, right now. Germany was, actually, far worse. 1935, Nuremberg Laws, the racial segregation of non-Aryans, etc.

Soviets kill a bunch of Poles in Katyn = OMG HOW EVIL!

Nazis kill off millions of people and work with masterminds behind the Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, Bataan Death March, etc = Hippo totally sympathizes with them.

Except that that's not the case and you're just putting words in my mouth. We're talking about reasons that led to WWII, not WWII itself. Events of Katyn were evil because they were designed to destroy the Poles' will to fight by annihilating Polish leadership and intelligentsia. Nazis' crimes mustn't be tolerated either, but the fact is that those crimes wouldn't have happened if the Soviets, Poles and Westerners had known their place and had stopped trying to undermine German sovereignty before WWII.

Germany undermined the territorial sovereignty of Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, the Soviet Union, Finland, Norway, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, France, Denmark, the list goes on and on. And you're still bitching about how "Poles and Westerners tried to undermine German sovereignty"? If you got any source, then do provide it, I'll be waiting.

Hippo, seriously, the irony in your statements is growing so badly. You claim to be god's defender of "LIBHURRTEE, FREEDOME, PROPHURRTEE" and yet you support the Nazis, who took away all these from the Jews and other non-Aryans. And you're supporting the Nazis as well. I hold no respect for you. None. You're lower than low, if you support those who mass-murdered over 25 million of people. Yeah, pull me the "BUT STALIN" or "BUT MAO" or whatever cards, but let's be honest, most of their deaths were famines caused by poor economic policies, whereas Hitler's excess death count was done on purpose. If we do also count those who died by famine and poverty and such, as well, in the Second World War, then Hitler's death toll is going to be well above the 60 million threshold, I am sure.

Wasn't going to happen and wasn't even fair to ask. They lost it because of their own idiot aggression.

I'm glad that you admit that you hate democracy. You and Stalin would have a lot in common, neither seems to care about the will of the people.

Says the one who supported Franco, Pinochet, the Nazis, and thousands of other genocidal madmen. Who are you to talk, Hippo, supporting Franco, Pinochet, the Nazis, Golden Dawn, etc.

[Immoren]

I love how you keep shifting the goalposts in an attempt to basically try to get away from my point (like how you conveniently ignore the hypocrisy of saying the Nazis should've won/we shouldn't tolerate their crimes).

My point?

At the basic level, the most basic level, the seizure of territory in general, why is it that Germany should have been allowed to do it (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918") but when one looks at Russia marching into Finland, it's wrong to you when essentially by your very same logic (because the territory "belonged to them before 1918"), it should be A-OK?

This discussion isn't going to anywhere because there is something you don't understand.

German minority (majority in some areas) in Poland wanted to be a part of Germany.
Nobody in Finland wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union. There was no sizable Russian minority anywhere.

The people of Danzig voted to join Germany and Poland denied their right to self-determination. Why don't you care about those people? Oh right, because you don't like democracy.

"nobody in Finland wanted to part of the soviet union."
Mah sides.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Which you haven't provided a source for and that I've never heard anything remotely concrete on, I might add.

Of course you haven't, you might doubt the official version of the events if you had heard about it!

http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/script ... opsis.html

...Anything not from obvious pro-Nazi sites that aren't banned in Germany?
I mean, seriously, that site has a pretty obvious bias that it started out with.

Source that that was "the will of the people" (beyond Hitler's assertions, obviously)?

The fact that the Free State of Danzig was ruled by the DNVP and NSDAP during its existence, and both of those parties wanted Danzig to join. Germany.

Was there any lobbying to that effect? Any attempt to actually get the Polish government's cooperation with handing over their own territory?
Or was it just "you have to have over all the shit we want, right now, because our party manifesto says so"?
Somehow, I think the latter. It's a tenuous and implicit connection at best.

They weren't banned. They were just meaningless.

Yes they were. Enabling Act banned all other political parties except the NSDAP... and the Union of Poles in Germany.

They weren't all banned - one party, as you pointed out, wasn't. You just proved me right.
And I'm also right in that the UPG had no political input of any import whatsoever during the war.

Yeah, he was really willing to compromise with all the the aggression and invasion and faking a Polish attack and stuff.

Yes, after decades of Polish oppression of the German minority

Still not convinced.

and ignoring the will of the people.

Sort of, maybe, not that the will of the people was ever conveyed in a way that was clear and/or wasn't a threat that the Germans would invade.

...You're not fucking seriously saying that.
You do realize that under the Nazi racial laws, all those Polish Germans were probably gassed to death, right? Or at the very least, put in the camps?

Yes, after the WWII began.

Right...

Once again, this could've been averted had the Poles not been such dicks towards Germans.

OR IT COULD HAVE BEEN AVERTED IF THE GERMANS HAD NOT FUCKING GASSED THE POLES
BECAUSE THAT WAS AN ACTUAL OPTION TOO
COME ON

Doesn't that entitle russia to get their 1918 border back too?

No, because there were no ethnic Russians who wanted to join the Soviet Union in the area of the Second Republic of Poland.

Source? Again, this doesn't make sense- why were there Germans in Poland, but not a single Russian?

Still doesn't justify it, your pro-Nazi assessment of the situation also noted.

It kinda does, what makes pre-war Germany any worse than pre-war Hungary or pre-war Germany?

All the aggression and defiance of international law and annexing countries that they had no right to annex and all the racism and beginning the T4 program and on and on...
Also, I think you accidentally got a word wrong, there.

Nothing, except modern revisionist left-wing historical "research".

Reality has an anti-Nazi bias. So sorry.

Stalin became just as culpable for WW2 literally six days before the Invasion of Poland (which was prefaced a solid six years of German aggression).

What Stalin did there was see what was inevitable (Germany starting a new European land war and conquering Poland) and essentially deciding to bandwagon onto it to get something out of it. That's not equal culpability; that's just opportunism on the back of someone else's aggression.
Doesn't really make sense.

Six years of German aggression?

Basically, since Hitler got in office.

What? Germany was anything but aggressive towards Poland,

Except for, you know, invading and raping the whole country.

they just wanted the areas stolen from by the Treaty of Versailles back where the population wanted to rejoin Germany as well.

Which totally explains why they annexed the whole country and brutally repressed the shit out of it.
Face it, Hippo, you're not convincing anyone here. Your argument makes literally no sense.

And no, Stalin enabled and essentially allowed WWII to begin by signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty.

It would have started anyway.
Seriously, you think the Germans would have not invaded Poland if Stalin said no? They already had their armies lined up at the border, gassed and ready to go. What the hell do you think their alternate options were?

Jesus christ, if two parties sign a treaty partitioning Eastern Europe, why is only the other party responsible?

Because the "other party" is the main force behind forcing the partition of Eastern Europe and will be firing the first shots as part of a plan they've had going for over five years?

Don't you understand how illogical your left-wing revisionist world view is?

This from a Nazi sympathizer.
Right, yeah, illogical, got it, sure.

Germany alone absolutely was responsible for WW1.

And this is when I stopped taking you seriously.

Everyone else has kinda gotten to that point with you a long time ago.
I'm just doing this to keep you indoors and not marching in a Neo-Nazi rally.

Germany was the one insisting that the Austrians treat the Serbs shittily. Germany was the one looking for an excuse for a land war against Russia. Germany was the one angling for Austria to demand impossible things out of Serbia in the aftermath of Ferdinand's death, that everybody knew the Serbs couldn't accept. And the Germans knew this would start a war with Russia as a result, with France coming in too.
If Germany hadn't intervened, Austria probably wouldn't have gone to war with Serbia, and the whole catastrophic chain of events would have been avoided. Read the letters send by Hotzendorf, Bethman-Hollweg, and the Kaiser - they were fucking dancing in their offices at the prospect of finally having an excuse to go to war with Russia, and demanding that the Austrians go and invade Serbia right damn now.

Balkans was a powderkeg waiting to explode

This is true, but such a thing does not translate necessarily into a World War.

and Germany had nothing to do with it,

Absolutely incorrect.
The telegrams and letters are publicly accessible. You can look them up. And they're not at all ambiguous.
For the record, I read them in Massie's "Dreadnaught" book. I heartily recommend it, it's a fascinating book.

except being an ally of Austria-Hungary. I'd also like some sources on Germans forcing Austrians to treat the Serbian minority badly.

This is an excerpt from the Massie book:
"During the two weeks in which the Austrian ultimatum was drafted, the German government was kept fully informed. Later, attempting to avoid responsibility for the outbreak of war, the Wilhelmstrasse claimed it had been unaware of the note's contents until it was publicly distributed. In fact, although Bethman-Hollweg and Jagow did not read the actual note until July 23rd, they knew it was not intended to be a basis for negotiations, but as a prelude to war.On July 14th, (German Foreign Secretary) Tschirsky informed Bethman: 'The Note is being composed so that the possibility of its acceptance is practically excluded'."
This is a direct quote from the German assessment of their own allies' writings, btw.

This is from a page later:
"The decision for war on the whole, endorsed in berlin almost before it was made in Vienna, came on July 5th-7th. For the next 15 days...Berlin pushed for haste. Jagow...told the Austrian Ambassador that 'the proposed action against Serbia...should be carried out without delay.' Threats were hinted: 'Germany would consider our further negotiating with Serbia a confession of weakness on our part and this would damage our position in the Triple Alliance...and would impact future German policy.'"
Such telegrams were sent from Berlin to Vienna almost every day from when Ferdinand was shot to when general war broke out.
The Germans did not want negotiation. They wanted a fight.

All parties involved were equally responsible for WWI, as the entire war began due to entangling alliance politic.

Those politics being called into play were the result of German aggression.

Shiftign the blame on a single country is a clear display of historical ignorance.

Which is a truly biting insult, coming from you and all.

This really should go without saying, but I'm not going to take Hitler's word for it.

You've taken Stalin's word,

I have absolutely not, and I'd like to see you point out where you assume I have.

so why not Hitler's? You can find proof for all his claims, the US did establish an embargo on German goods,

This never happened.
Seriously, this isn't ambiguous or debated, this is objective historical fact. There was a limited blockade on weapons of war as per the Neutrality Acts, but you can clearly see that companies were openly working with Germany right up to the declaration.

freeze German assets in the US

Source?
Seeing as how they couldn't even get a general embargo going, I doubt this actually happened prewar either.

and publicly condemn Germany before the war.

As is their right.
Why do you hate free speech?

...The entire U-Boat campaign? Coupled with the surface raiders?

You're confused, we're talking about interwar era here, Germany did not sink anything during the period of 1933-1939.

Then you have even less of an argument, because there never was a US embargo or freezing of assets.

Justified.

No, it wasn't. Interfering in Germany's internal affairs led to WWII.

Hitler being a fucking psychotic and the German people being willing to indulge him led to WW2.
The only thing that could've stopped, him, ironically, was more Western interference.

Something both sides were guilty of.

Germany hadn't embargoed any country during the period of 1933-1939.

A now irrelevant point.

An attempt to create popular support for something that turned out to be justified due to German aggression, entirely justified for the entire world to see the second the first concentration camp was opened up, was hardly a crime.
Also, apparently, "general warmongering" was just repeating your first two points.
Okay.

"German aggression, German aggression". There was no such thing as German aggression

Tell that to the Czechs.

until foreign powers drove Hitler too far

Oh no, all those foreign powers saying mean things about poor ol' Hitler, and imposing their (objectively nonexistant) embargoes! Clearly, they've forced me to invade all these countries! He truly had no other options!
Seriously, read Mein Kampf. He'd been waiting for this for decades.

and he was left with no choice

That's never a situation that actually occurs.

but to rescue German minority from Poles by force.

It's amazing how you contort yourself to actually believe this stuff, honestly.
Yeah, he "rescued" the Danzig corridor. He then proceeded to kill Millions of POles in a positively barbaric occupation that effectively led to the deaths of around 15-20% of the Polish population.
Was it worth it?

Had the international community refrained from attacks on German sovereignty, WWII wouldn't have taken place.

Yeah, we'd all just be Nazis right now, which is (I guess) a good system for you.
For civilization, not so much.

[Agritum]

This discussion isn't going to anywhere because there is something you don't understand.

German minority (majority in some areas) in Poland wanted to be a part of Germany.
Nobody in Finland wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union. There was no sizable Russian minority anywhere.

The people of Danzig voted to join Germany and Poland denied their right to self-determination. Why don't you care about those people? Oh right, because you don't like democracy.

"nobody in Finland wanted to part of the soviet union."
Mah sides.

Everyone knows that Finnish Communists weren't TRUE FINNS™

[Nevanmaa]

This discussion isn't going to anywhere because there is something you don't understand.

German minority (majority in some areas) in Poland wanted to be a part of Germany.
Nobody in Finland wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union. There was no sizable Russian minority anywhere.

The people of Danzig voted to join Germany and Poland denied their right to self-determination. Why don't you care about those people? Oh right, because you don't like democracy.

"nobody in Finland wanted to part of the soviet union."
Mah sides.

Kuusinen's commie thugs had been kicked out and most generously executed by Stalin in their magical leftie wonderland after the Civil War. There were very little, if any, people who wanted to join the Soviet Union before the Winter War.

[Ganos Lao]

This discussion isn't going to anywhere because there is something you don't understand.

German minority (majority in some areas) in Poland wanted to be a part of Germany.
Nobody in Finland wanted to be a part of the Soviet Union. There was no sizable Russian minority anywhere.

The people of Danzig voted to join Germany and Poland denied their right to self-determination. Why don't you care about those people? Oh right, because you don't like democracy.

Actually, I don't have any posts on record saying that I didn't care about who so and so voted for and so on.

What my posts are about is how hypocritical it is of you to give two fucks about "self-determination". You can't go around and say "well, the Germans owned this place before 1918," so it's rightfully theirs. By your very own logic, Danzig and the surrounding area was rightfully Polish, since long before Germany existed as a nation, it was Polish as far back as Mieszko I. By your very own logic, Finland was rightfully Russian, because the Russians owned Finland before 1918 regardless of how nobody wanted to be part of the Soviet Union. I boil down your shitty argument to its most basic flaw.

By your own logic, you could justify all sorts of revanchist fantasies. Hell, you claim to be more patriotic than millions of Americans, and yet by your logic, America has no right to exist in any form (because it's built on the property of Native American tribes). I could go on and on with this.

You say I hate democracy? Yet who here is the Nazi apologist? Who here is the one defending, long before even Austria was discussed, the guys who collectivized all power in their hands, depriving German citizens of their right to vote?

You say I hate self-determination? Why, then, do you not care for the Czechs and Slovaks who, in their own areas where they demographically held sway, were told that Germans, who were not a sizeable minority (IIRC, to use another argument of yours for a moment) in their lands, were to rule them?

You say you love liberty and personal property rights being sacrosanct? Yet who here is the apologist for the guys behind Kristallnacht and the Nuremburg Laws? But, of course, the Western scoundrels pushed Hitler to shove innocent Jewish children who had no ideas about fucking politics or demographics or anything into concentration camps. Well, kids, we hate the Soviets, the Poles, etc, so we're just going to kill you for no real reason. And on and on the Magic Cattle Car went, gathering bundles of innocent men, women and children, stopping at exciting places like Auschwitz and Treblinka. Meanwhile, the Japanese adopted this model (the Super Happy Imperial Fun Time Hour), and brought it over to Nanking and Manchukuo and Bataan and Singapore and countless other places and rather than the poor innocent Germans - who didn't really mean to kill the Jews and other traditional victims of theirs - telling them to knock that shit off, they're like, well, okay, that's their business. Certainly the Germans, who were oh so civil and pleasant towards minorities themselves, would have tried to teach the Japanese not to emulate the Western barbarians.

Just because X did Y doesn't mean you should support Z (who also did Y) instead.

[Ganos Lao]

"nobody in Finland wanted to part of the soviet union."
Mah sides.

Kuusinen's commie thugs had been kicked out and most generously executed by Stalin in their magical leftie wonderland after the Civil War. There were very little, if any, people who wanted to join the Soviet Union before the Winter War.

Because everyone knows the magic rightie wonderland is much better.

Since when did you become Elbonian?

[The USOT]

Like most of what Hitler said, it is utter tripe.

And Hitler was NOT an economist. He didnt do anything with the economy at all, he just ran a government which dealt with the economy.

And the economy was dealt with poorly at that.

If it has not already been linked to then I would be suprised, but Laerod did an excellent debunking of Hitler in "The Ultimate Hitler thread" in which he described the following on Nazi economics.

Many people credit Hitler with turning the economy around after the Great Depression. He doesn’t deserve it.

The Nazis were appointed to the government at a time marked by massive unemployment. The thing is though that unemployment dropped the year they took power, not even taking into account that the Enabling Act wasn’t passed until a few months later and any policies would have taken a year or so realistically before yielding serious results regarding the economy and yet another for that to have an effect on the job market:



So basically, the Nazis were not responsible for causing the recovery; it was already under way and hardly unexpected given Germany’s geographical position and demographics.

This isn’t to say that the massive investment in infrastructure and armaments didn’t help or speed up recovery, but it wasn’t exactly as great as many people pretend it is. There are, again, a number of misconceptions and a good deal of cherry-picking involved.

Firstly, let’s address misconceptions about the Autobahn. The first proper Autobahn in Germany was opened by Konrad Adenauer, then Mayor of Cologne and later first Federal Chancellor of Germany, in 1932 (construction started in 1929) and connected the cities of Cologne and Bonn, ergo a year before the Nazis took power. It was the only Autobahn out of a bunch of planned by the Reichstag to reach completion, mainly because the day that the Reichstag had finally managed to agree to finance them and was going to vote on that (July 18th, 1930), the NSDAP (Nazi Party) and KPD (Communist Party) sabotaged the vote by failing to attend (Cologne-Bonn was built only because it secured municipal financing).

But then the Nazis took power and began an ambitious project to build multiple Autobahns across Germany. They were going to grow by a thousand kilometers every year and create endless amounts of jobs. The projected goals weren’t met. Apart from the first few years, the ambitious objective of an extra thousand km each year remained utopian; in total, the Autobahns reached a total length of 3 896 km before construction was finally halted in 1943. The Autobahn never employed more than 60 000 workers, plenty of which already had jobs (thus it didn’t actually create that many). Indeed, there were routine complaints by the Autobahn organizers that there were never enough workers available for the Autobahn; they already had jobs elsewhere!

So basically, if it hadn’t been for the Nazis, the Autobahn could have been built at a time when it actually would have provided much needed jobs and stimulus, rather than after the economy was already in an upswing.

The armaments industry had a bigger impact on the job market, as did the reduction of female employment (and subsequent purging of women from the unemployment statistics) and the reinstitution of the draft. Now, we can’t really credit this with aiding the German economy either, despite the noticeable effects it was having. There are a few reasons for this:

First off, the entire process was financed by a credit-swap scam. Economics minister Hjalmar Schacht created the Metallurgische Forschungsgesellschaft m.b.H. (MeFo for short) to circumvent limits on how much the Reichsbank could lend out to the government. Using this, the Nazis managed to run a debt of 12 billion Reichsmark. The year the first payments were to be made? 1939, the year the Nazis attacked Poland and began plundering Europe for food and finances (just consider the tax placed on the French for which they were meant to fund their own occupation). So the entire rearmament was funded by debt and the looming economic collapse was hidden by WWII.

Which brings us to the second point: WWII. Rearmament had no other purpose than to fight WWII, specifically wars with France and the Soviet Union. Hitler outlined as much in Mein Kampf (even if his hopes that the UK would join an alliance with Germany and Italy turned out to be utterly unfounded) and then to everyone’s surprise, followed through on that. When the goal of rearmament is a war of aggression, whatever job growth it creates is ethically indefensible. If you buy a gun and then shoot the owner of the gun shop that sold it to you with it, you don’t get a pat on the back for having given him a sale.

Not to mention that the end result of rearmament was the utter economic ruin of Germany, mass displacement of the population, and the irreparable sullying of the German reputation. The entire point of the lion’s share of the Nazi stimulus was preparation and waging of the Second World War, so cutting off the evaluation of what good it did for Germany before the fighting began is an intellectually dishonest assessment of Nazi economic policy.

[Esternial]

Because the systematic murder of millions of Jews, Slavs, gays, anti-socials, Poles, etc. is totally fine.

I'm not one of them.
Is it proven that all 11 million are killed?

I do not see this thread ending well.

We're slowly heading for holocaust denial.

[Aequalitia]

I'm not one of them.
Is it proven that all 11 million are killed?

I do not see this thread ending well.

We're slowly heading for holocaust denial.

I don't hope, but I think this topic goes more and more towards a denial of the holocaust.

[Esternial]

I do not see this thread ending well.

We're slowly heading for holocaust denial.

I don't hope, but I think this topic goes more and more towards a denial of the holocaust.

"I wasn't there, so how can I be sure it happened?"