Seven Year Old "Too Young" For Puberty Blockers

[Distruzio]

Um...did you quote the wrong person?

well, from what i'm gleaning from your conversation, you are against the parents because you think hormone treatments are permanent

Nah. You got that confused. She was asserting that not allowing the child a reprieve against his mental anguish via the blockers creates permanent damage to the child.

[Olthar]

You know, there's a reason why we have things like Child Services. Parents do not have complete domination over their kids, and they are legally required to care for their children or else risk losing them. Unlike you, I am not willing to condemn a child to a life of suffering just because they have horrible parents.

Indeed. And where neglectful parents fail in their responsibility, CP should intervene. However, the children do not have dominion over themselves yet. Neither does the government possess complete dominion over the parents. I'm not willing to dismiss the parents out of hand because I disagree with their parenting style.

When a child expresses that they are transgender and the parents refuse to trust the therapist who corroborates, then they are being neglectful and failing in their responsibility.

[Distruzio]

No. I didn't. If that be the case, then I'd favor CP involvement over a parent's right to their child.

Unfortunately it's not legally considered that, and it causes a lot of problems for children and teens who wish they could go on blockers but their parents won't let them. Denying any child medical treatments is child abuse. Even more so when it comes down to a parent attempting to force their child to live as a gender they aren't.

Then I wouldnt favor CP involvement. I'd favor fraternal involvement - such as the family, faith, school, counselors, or friends.

Note that I'm not announcing the parents choice is the best choice. Only that they get the final say... as repulsive as that say is.

[Blasveck]

actually there are various times when professionals do have right to tell parents to fuck off in the paths they choose for their children and while this might be a bit troublesome to argue denying medical treatment counts. well, unless you're religious of course, then you can just let your kid fucking die of cancer and the law won't give two shits.

Would the case in question be considered one of those times?

Yes, considering that said child's mental stability is at stake if he truly feels that he is a he.
(If I typed the wrong gender, apologies. My iPhone has been acting up lately)

[The Tundra]

relying on faith healing is like betting all your money on 31 black on a Roulette table

Do you think that parents should be allowed to forgo medical treatment for their child in favor of faith healing?

If so, you contribute to child illness and death.
If not, you think the parent does not always get to decide.

i never said anything in favor of faith healing, faith healing should be in compound with practical healing for the well being of the child's spirit (assuming the child is religious)

but the Doctor can't do anything in terms of treatment without my consent, i am the guardian of my child, its my responsibility to look out for their best interests.

[Distruzio]

Indeed. And where neglectful parents fail in their responsibility, CP should intervene. However, the children do not have dominion over themselves yet. Neither does the government possess complete dominion over the parents. I'm not willing to dismiss the parents out of hand because I disagree with their parenting style.

When a child expresses that they are transgender and the parents refuse to trust the therapist who corroborates, then they are being neglectful and failing in their responsibility.

I agree. But it isn't, necessarily, legally neglectful. Therefore CP should not intervene.

[The Tundra]

well, from what i'm gleaning from your conversation, you are against the parents because you think hormone treatments are permanent

Nah. You got that confused. She was asserting that not allowing the child a reprieve against his mental anguish via the blockers creates permanent damage to the child.

i'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm dumb

[Distruzio]

Would the case in question be considered one of those times?

Yes, considering that said child's mental stability is at stake if he truly feels that he is a he.
(If I typed the wrong gender, apologies. My iPhone has been acting up lately)

.... I don't know about that.

[Souseiseki]

When a child expresses that they are transgender and the parents refuse to trust the therapist who corroborates, then they are being neglectful and failing in their responsibility.

I agree. But it isn't, necessarily, legally neglectful. Therefore CP should not intervene.

i had no idea you had so much respect for the states arbitrary definitions

do you believe it is or not?

[Distruzio]

Nah. You got that confused. She was asserting that not allowing the child a reprieve against his mental anguish via the blockers creates permanent damage to the child.

i'mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm dumb

Don't fret. Shit happens.

[Blasveck]

Yes, considering that said child's mental stability is at stake if he truly feels that he is a he.
(If I typed the wrong gender, apologies. My iPhone has been acting up lately)

.... I don't know about that.

Don't know about what?

The possibility of mental instability due to the child being in the wrong body?

[Distruzio]

I agree. But it isn't, necessarily, legally neglectful. Therefore CP should not intervene.

i had no idea you had so much respect for the states arbitrary definitions

do you believe it is or not?

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

[Distruzio]

.... I don't know about that.

Don't know about what?

The possibility of mental instability due to the child being in the wrong body?

No. Not that. The possibility of the abuse in question being considered one of those times with therapist privilege trumps parental rights.

[Olthar]

When a child expresses that they are transgender and the parents refuse to trust the therapist who corroborates, then they are being neglectful and failing in their responsibility.

I agree. But it isn't, necessarily, legally neglectful. Therefore CP should not intervene.

The law isn't the be-all end-all of morality and right. Denying medical treatment for trans children is abuse.

[Souseiseki]

i had no idea you had so much respect for the states arbitrary definitions

do you believe it is or not?

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

but your respect for the parents is based on whether it is legally neglectful or not, lest we forget where those laws currently come from?

so you do believe some sort of mini-CPS should intervene?

[Blasveck]

Don't know about what?

The possibility of mental instability due to the child being in the wrong body?

No. Not that. The possibility of the abuse in question being considered one of those times with therapist privilege trumps parental rights.

I'd say the possibility of causing mental trauma is a good reason to intervene.

Besides, the child can go off the pill at anytime they desire, up to a certain point, IIRC.

[Distruzio]

I agree. But it isn't, necessarily, legally neglectful. Therefore CP should not intervene.

The law isn't the be-all end-all of morality and right. Denying medical treatment for trans children is abuse.

I agree on both counts.

In fact, I'm using morality in order to restrict the authority of the officials you wish could be used to enforce morality.

[Distruzio]

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

but your respect for the parents is based on whether it is legally neglectful or not, lest we forget where those laws currently come from?

No. My respect is bound elsewhere not entirely relevant to the topic of this thread. Once more, my respect is not hinged upon the Law or the State from which it is fashioned.

so you do believe some sort of mini-CPS should intervene?

I'd like that, yes. Just not at the expense of parental rights. Municipal authorities would not, via intervention, jeopardize the established recognition of rights of parents. A national CP would. That's immoral and unacceptable.

[Olthar]

i had no idea you had so much respect for the states arbitrary definitions

do you believe it is or not?

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

As a trans woman who has spent the past half decade suffering without help, I can assure you that it very much is that terrible. Until I got a therapist, I spent years cripplingly depressed and on the verge of suicide. If it weren't for my psychologist, I'd probably be dead right now. Do you want that to happen to other trans individuals who are denied treatment by bigoted parents?

[Blasveck]

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

As a trans woman who has spent the past half decade suffering without help, I can assure you that it very much is that terrible. Until I got a therapist, I spent years cripplingly depressed and on the verge of suicide. If it weren't for my psychologist, I'd probably be dead right now. Do you want that to happen to other trans individuals who are denied treatment by bigoted parents?

I think the problem that Dis sees with this is the State using force to justify what it feels is immoral.

Yes, parents can be bigoted, they can also be incompetent, disrespectful, and all around horrible.
The problem is using the State to enforce what you feel is moral, even if said action (denying the child the pill) is wrong.

[Olthar]

As a trans woman who has spent the past half decade suffering without help, I can assure you that it very much is that terrible. Until I got a therapist, I spent years cripplingly depressed and on the verge of suicide. If it weren't for my psychologist, I'd probably be dead right now. Do you want that to happen to other trans individuals who are denied treatment by bigoted parents?

I think the problem that Dis sees with this is the State using force to justify what it feels is immoral.

Yes, parents can be bigoted, they can also be incompetent, disrespectful, and all around horrible.
The problem is using the State to enforce what you feel is moral, even if said action (denying the child the pill) is wrong.

The parents' right to cause suffering does not trump the state's right to prevent it.

[Distruzio]

It isn't about respecting the State. It's about respecting the parents.

I believe it to be abuse, yes. I don't believe it to be abuse necessitating government intervention. I'd be all for the expansion of, say, municipal authority to intervene in such cases. Not the national government, though.

As a trans woman who has spent the past half decade suffering without help, I can assure you that it very much is that terrible. Until I got a therapist, I spent years cripplingly depressed and on the verge of suicide. If it weren't for my psychologist, I'd probably be dead right now. Do you want that to happen to other trans individuals who are denied treatment by bigoted parents?

Absolutely not, and I sympathize both in my own way and because of my preference for trans-women.

I'm not presenting a black and white answer to your black and white question. I'm saying that yes, refusing to acknowledge gender dysphoria is abuse and immoral; and yes, I would prefer parents to refrain from neglecting the well being and health of their children; but no I will not acknowledge an increased authority by national level authorities to intervene where such authority does not yet exist; and no, I do not believe the State or it's agents possess a greater intercessory sovereignty than the parent over the child.

It's about setting a standard.

[Distruzio]

I think the problem that Dis sees with this is the State using force to justify what it feels is immoral.

Yes, parents can be bigoted, they can also be incompetent, disrespectful, and all around horrible.
The problem is using the State to enforce what you feel is moral, even if said action (denying the child the pill) is wrong.

The parents' right to cause suffering does not trump the state's right to prevent it.

Yes. It does. And that is quite unfortunate.

[Soy lor n]

FWIW, my grasp of math came well before my grasp of my own identity

I hope you're not suggesting that mastering math is prerequisite step to understanding gender identity. Those are two unrelated things.

No, I'm just saying that at 7 I knew the answer to the question "What is three plus six?" I did not know the answer to the question "Who is Lor-n?"
Of course that's anecdotal, and the two are not related, I just don't believe that questions of identity are the kind of thing that come easy to a child. Most people here seem to be suggesting that academic knowledge takes work, but self-knowledge just comes to you naturally. I did not, personally, find that to be true of myself.

[Souseiseki]

Municipal authorities would not, via intervention, jeopardize the established recognition of rights of parents. A national CP would. That's immoral and unacceptable.

the fuck does that work? how does the government intervenes in this issue differ from the government intervenes in this issue?

i don't want to end up derailing but really now