Would Germany have won the war if Hitler did not invade Rus

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Aircraft carriers.

Although BP was established in 1939 it was actually valued until later in the war.

What about aircraft carriers? The Royal Navy had several at the outbreak of the war. Ask the Bismarck about it. And escort carriers began entering service in '41.

Indeed...and when did they start to be used for ASW?

[Titus City]

If America hadn't gotten invoked, then he probably would have won. And no Jews would be alive in Europe.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

What about aircraft carriers? The Royal Navy had several at the outbreak of the war. Ask the Bismarck about it. And escort carriers began entering service in '41.

Indeed...and when did they start to be used for ASW?

At the very beginning of the war, although their tactics weren't originally very good. HMS Courageous was sunk in one of these carrier subhunting groups just two weeks after war was declared.

[Costa Alegria]

Still utterly impossible. The Home Fleet wasn't in the Channel, it was up in Scotland (I believe that Channel Fleet was pretty formidable in its own right as well). As were a LOT of the FAA's Catalinas and Bostons and whatnot, specifically devoted to antishipping work.

The Germans were still capable of infiltrating and sinking British ships even at anchor in places such as Scalpa Flow.

Indeed...and when did they start to be used for ASW?

Most of the aircraft used in the Fleet Air Arm were torpedo aircraft or fighters. ASW warfare in the 40's primarily revolved around ship-borne sonar and spotting from aircraft.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

My point being that the U-Boats were absolutely something that the British were capable of coming to grips with at any point in the war.

We're all very impressed by how vulgar you can be. You must be super cool.
Also, they weren't "amateurs", they were members of the Polish military.

Clearly you have no clue regarding the subject.

If only you could be bothered to prove me wrong on any level, someone might actually be convinced by that little assertion.

Oh and attacking the use of me using swear words? I really don't give a fuck.

soooooooooo coooooooooooooooooool

If you think that my usage of such language is worthy of attacking, rather than my argument?
Well it rather proves my point that you are rather the amateur.

Nah, it just proves my point that apparently you think gratuitously swearing for no reason in the middle of a debate is something worth doing instead of making a coherent argument.
Also, I was saying that you must be super cool to swear that much. I meant it honestly. Really.
You'll also notice I pretty much took your argument apart, so...this is kinda awkward for you.

So coming back to the subject of your amateurism you mentioned Churchill with regard to the battle of the Atlantic. The same Churchill who admitted that the only thing that frightened him most was the U-boot peril.

Because he knew the potential of it because of the massive impact it had had on the Great War, where it did nearly cripple Britain.
It never actually reached those levels in the Second World War.

Oh...by the way....I wasn't calling the incredibly brave Polish "amateurs".
I was calling you that. Because your understanding of the subject is amateurish at best.

This really means a lot, coming from you.
Hell, you can barely string together a post longer than a few sentences in here, much less a few sentences actually saying anything valid. Take a look at any of my posts in this thread, and see how it compares to what you've deigned to contribute. You don't come off very well.
I'm pretty sure I've objectively studied this subject more than you anyway, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertions off of.

BTW: Wow, how convincing: more than half your argument there was taking cheap shots at me. Eight sentences, and six of them were basically saying how much of an idiot you think I am.
BY YOUR LOGIC I GUESS YOU REALLY MUST NOT BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH MY AWESOME ARGUMENT LOL PWNED

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Still utterly impossible. The Home Fleet wasn't in the Channel, it was up in Scotland (I believe that Channel Fleet was pretty formidable in its own right as well). As were a LOT of the FAA's Catalinas and Bostons and whatnot, specifically devoted to antishipping work.

The Germans were still capable of infiltrating and sinking British ships even at anchor in places such as Scalpa Flow.

That worked exactly once there.
The British learned from that mistake quickly. It would not have worked repeatedly, believe me.

[Costa Alegria]

That worked exactly once there.
The British learned from that mistake quickly. It would not have worked repeatedly, believe me.

And? I never said an invasion of Britain was possible. The Axis would have had an easier time challenging British power in the Mediterranean.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Indeed...and when did they start to be used for ASW?

At the very beginning of the war, although their tactics weren't originally very good. HMS Courageous was sunk in one of these carrier subhunting groups just two weeks after war was declared.

Yeah...because Bismark was a sub, sonar was so fantastically brilliant at the beginning of the war and the tactics consisted of a return echo and "hey" lets drop a shit ton of depth charges, of which most won't work, just about here" all of which were conducted via aircraft.

Oh wait.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Clearly you have no clue regarding the subject.

If only you could be bothered to prove me wrong on any level, someone might actually be convinced by that little assertion.

Oh and attacking the use of me using swear words? I really don't give a fuck.

soooooooooo coooooooooooooooooool

If you think that my usage of such language is worthy of attacking, rather than my argument?
Well it rather proves my point that you are rather the amateur.

Nah, it just proves my point that apparently you think gratuitously swearing for no reason in the middle of a debate is something worth doing instead of making a coherent argument.
Also, I was saying that you must be super cool to swear that much. I meant it honestly. Really.
You'll also notice I pretty much took your argument apart, so...this is kinda awkward for you.

So coming back to the subject of your amateurism you mentioned Churchill with regard to the battle of the Atlantic. The same Churchill who admitted that the only thing that frightened him most was the U-boot peril.

Because he knew the potential of it because of the massive impact it had had on the Great War, where it did nearly cripple Britain.
It never actually reached those levels in the Second World War.

Oh...by the way....I wasn't calling the incredibly brave Polish "amateurs".
I was calling you that. Because your understanding of the subject is amateurish at best.

This really means a lot, coming from you.
Hell, you can barely string together a post longer than a few sentences in here, much less a few sentences actually saying anything valid. Take a look at any of my posts in this thread, and see how it compares to what you've deigned to contribute. You don't come off very well.
I'm pretty sure I've objectively studied this subject more than you anyway, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertions off of.

BTW: Wow, how convincing: more than half your argument there was taking cheap shots at me. Eight sentences, and six of them were basically saying how much of an idiot you think I am.
BY YOUR LOGIC I GUESS YOU REALLY MUST NOT BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH MY AWESOME ARGUMENT LOL PWNED

All I'm reading here is a bunch of whining. Boo fucking hoo.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

That worked exactly once there.
The British learned from that mistake quickly. It would not have worked repeatedly, believe me.

And? I never said an invasion of Britain was possible. The Axis would have had an easier time challenging British power in the Mediterranean.

Imagine how things might have turned out had they actually taken Gibraltar and Malta?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

At the very beginning of the war, although their tactics weren't originally very good. HMS Courageous was sunk in one of these carrier subhunting groups just two weeks after war was declared.

Yeah...because Bismark was a sub,

Right, It was a ship they hunted down and sunk.
What's your point?

sonar was so fantastically brilliant at the beginning of the war and the tactics consisted of a return echo and "hey" lets drop a shit ton of depth charges, of which most won't work, just about here"

That's ridiculously oversimplified.

all of which were conducted via aircraft.

Demonstrably wrong.

Oh wait.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
You'll note that's pretty much what it took to sink a U-Boat, yeah.

If only you could be bothered to prove me wrong on any level, someone might actually be convinced by that little assertion.

soooooooooo coooooooooooooooooool

Nah, it just proves my point that apparently you think gratuitously swearing for no reason in the middle of a debate is something worth doing instead of making a coherent argument.
Also, I was saying that you must be super cool to swear that much. I meant it honestly. Really.
You'll also notice I pretty much took your argument apart, so...this is kinda awkward for you.

Because he knew the potential of it because of the massive impact it had had on the Great War, where it did nearly cripple Britain.
It never actually reached those levels in the Second World War.

This really means a lot, coming from you.
Hell, you can barely string together a post longer than a few sentences in here, much less a few sentences actually saying anything valid. Take a look at any of my posts in this thread, and see how it compares to what you've deigned to contribute. You don't come off very well.
I'm pretty sure I've objectively studied this subject more than you anyway, so I'm not sure what you're basing your assertions off of.

BTW: Wow, how convincing: more than half your argument there was taking cheap shots at me. Eight sentences, and six of them were basically saying how much of an idiot you think I am.
BY YOUR LOGIC I GUESS YOU REALLY MUST NOT BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH MY AWESOME ARGUMENT LOL PWNED

All I'm reading here is a bunch of whining. Boo fucking hoo.

A+ job there.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Yeah...because Bismark was a sub,

Right, It was a ship they hunted down and sunk.
What's your point?

sonar was so fantastically brilliant at the beginning of the war and the tactics consisted of a return echo and "hey" lets drop a shit ton of depth charges, of which most won't work, just about here"

That's ridiculously oversimplified.

all of which were conducted via aircraft.

Demonstrably wrong.

Oh wait.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
You'll note that's pretty much what it took to sink a U-Boat, yeah.

All I'm reading here is a bunch of whining. Boo fucking hoo.

A+ job there.

Unlike your F. Indeed. Thank you.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Right, It was a ship they hunted down and sunk.
What's your point?

That's ridiculously oversimplified.

Demonstrably wrong.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.
You'll note that's pretty much what it took to sink a U-Boat, yeah.


A+ job there.

Unlike your F. Indeed. Thank you.

If you're seriously going down the path of interpreting obvious sarcasm as genuine in an attempt to provoke me, it's not going to work.
It's just going to kind of make me feel bad for you.
Because that's pathetic.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Unlike your F. Indeed. Thank you.

If you're seriously going down the path of interpreting obvious sarcasm as genuine in an attempt to provoke me, it's not going to work.
It's just going to kind of make me feel bad for you.
Because that's pathetic.

Considering your inability to detect sarcasm in the first place obviously makes you an ideal candidate for discussing...sarcasm. Perhaps you should just give this up as a bad job and give up. I mean you embarrassed yourself enough with bringing up HMS Courageous. Especially that you did not mention what happened after her sinking, namely the removal of RN carriers for anti sub work.

So once more...suggest you learn a tad more about the subject before you spout bollocks.

Cheers for playing.

I'm off for a wank and then bed

[United Kingdom of Poland]

At the very beginning of the war, although their tactics weren't originally very good. HMS Courageous was sunk in one of these carrier subhunting groups just two weeks after war was declared.

Yeah...because Bismark was a sub, sonar was so fantastically brilliant at the beginning of the war and the tactics consisted of a return echo and "hey" lets drop a shit ton of depth charges, of which most won't work, just about here" all of which were conducted via aircraft.

Oh wait.

You do realize that in ASW terms, you don't need to destroy the sub. Forcing it on the run or into a crash dive effectively creates a temporary kill.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

If you're seriously going down the path of interpreting obvious sarcasm as genuine in an attempt to provoke me, it's not going to work.
It's just going to kind of make me feel bad for you.
Because that's pathetic.

Considering your inability to detect sarcasm in the first place obviously makes you an ideal candidate for discussing...sarcasm. Perhaps you should just give this up as a bad job and give up. I mean you embarrassed yourself enough with bringing up HMS Courageous. Especially that you did not mention what happened after her sinking, namely the removal of RN carriers for anti sub work.

A very temporary removal. What it amounted to was not using RN carriers as centerpieces of subhunting forces, but as augments to convoy protection. They also stopped using fleet carriers for such work - not the smaller carriers that were beginning to come into play in 1941.

[Costa Alegria]

Imagine how things might have turned out had they actually taken Gibraltar and Malta?

Then the Royal Navy and the RAF would have largely been confined to Cyprus and the sympathies of neutral Turkey. From there, they could have carried out limited attacks against German and Italian supply convoys bound for Libya. More than likely, it would have prompted the Germans to carry out larger scale raids against British bases on Cyprus and possibly another airborne invasions. Although I personally have significant doubts about the latter eventuating due to Hitler's fears of the debacle on Crete.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Imagine how things might have turned out had they actually taken Gibraltar and Malta?

Then the Royal Navy and the RAF would have largely been confined to Cyprus and the sympathies of neutral Turkey. From there, they could have carried out limited attacks against German and Italian supply convoys bound for Libya. More than likely, it would have prompted the Germans to carry out larger scale raids against British bases on Cyprus and possibly another airborne invasions. Although I personally have significant doubts about the latter eventuating due to Hitler's fears of the debacle on Crete.

Holland and Crete basically destroyed Germany's ability to do large-scale airdrops of parachute forces. Malta would likely have shattered them utterly.

[Costa Alegria]

Holland and Crete basically destroyed Germany's ability to do large-scale airdrops of parachute forces. Malta would likely have shattered them utterly.

Maybe. Don't forget that Malta was virtually crippled by the bombing conducted by the Germans and Italians. I personally don't think an invasion of Malta would be impossible, but it would have required coordination of more than just airborne forces.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

Holland and Crete basically destroyed Germany's ability to do large-scale airdrops of parachute forces. Malta would likely have shattered them utterly.

Maybe. Don't forget that Malta was virtually crippled by the bombing conducted by the Germans and Italians. I personally don't think an invasion of Malta would be impossible, but it would have required coordination of more than just airborne forces.

Shhh, stop arguing and sing "Rule Britannia" while waving a small Union Jack. Just let it happen.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Maybe. Don't forget that Malta was virtually crippled by the bombing conducted by the Germans and Italians. I personally don't think an invasion of Malta would be impossible, but it would have required coordination of more than just airborne forces.

Shhh, stop arguing and sing "Rule Britannia" while waving a small Union Jack. Just let it happen.

I don't necessarily think such an invasion would have been impossible either, but it doesn't seem likely to have ever been successful. Malta would have been a hard nut to crack, especially given that so much of the island was urban, tanks wouldn't do much good.

[Costa Alegria]

Shhh, stop arguing and sing "Rule Britannia" while waving a small Union Jack. Just let it happen.

*quietly hums the Marseillaise and wishes the French military didn't rely on crusty old men from the Great war*

I don't necessarily think such an invasion would have been impossible either, but it doesn't seem likely to have ever been successful. Malta would have been a hard nut to crack, especially given that so much of the island was urban, tanks wouldn't do much good.

It's not like they would be facing large armoured formations. And what armour the British did have stationed on Malta would have been rendered inoperable by air attacks or, as you said, the predominantly urban environment.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Shhh, stop arguing and sing "Rule Britannia" while waving a small Union Jack. Just let it happen.

*quietly hums the Marseillaise and wishes the French military didn't rely on crusty old men from the Great war*

I don't necessarily think such an invasion would have been impossible either, but it doesn't seem likely to have ever been successful. Malta would have been a hard nut to crack, especially given that so much of the island was urban, tanks wouldn't do much good.

It's not like they would be facing large armoured formations. And what armour the British did have stationed on Malta would have been rendered inoperable by air attacks or, as you said, the predominantly urban environment.

I meant the Germans and their potential uses of tanks more than the Brits.

[Costa Alegria]

I meant the Germans and their potential uses of tanks more than the Brits.

Did the Germans use tanks in their invasion of Crete?

[Lemanrussland]

I meant the Germans and their potential uses of tanks more than the Brits.

Did the Germans use tanks in their invasion of Crete?

Not in significant numbers. A few Panzer IIs (essentially a light tank) were sent there, but that's about it.