Would Germany have won the war if Hitler did not invade Rus

[The Tiger Kingdom]

The RAF's big advantage was radar, would you agree with that?

Obviously, but German attacks on radar were never what you'd call "sure things" (assuming that's what you're getting at), and it's also the one thing that would absolutely draw out the entirety of Fighter Command to come out and defend. It'd be asking for a German bomber annihilation.

[Dracoria]

Nope.

Option A:

Any 2 of the principal Allies (Britain and friends, United States, Soviet Union) plus the already-involved smaller nations (Free Pols, Free Greeks, etc) and the Axis would have fallen in time. Hitler was such a bumbling, paranoid little hobgoblin behind closed doors that he would have driven Germany into economic ruin in the long term (he already was pre-war for short-term gain in the economy), not to mention the eventual gutting of its best officers.

The USSR did not help at all in the Pacific until the writing was on the wall, so there would have been little change there and we can focus on the European theatre. North Africa was already lost, due to the arrival of new British and American weapons and the battleships too old to serve in the Pacific (of which both honestly had plenty). Italy wasn't putting much into the eastern front, so the invasion of Italy wouldn't have changed much unless they caved and became a German territory earlier in the war.

With the Americans joining in the war and all available Lend-Lease supplies going to the Brits and allies instead of some diverting along dangerous channels to Soviet ports, the paltry German surface fleet could never have succeeded in an invasion of Britain. They would have had to rely on river barges and hastily-built landers which, even if they did not sink, would be murderously assaulted by the RAF much like their bombers were (assuming here that the U-boat fleet can keep the Anglo-American surface forces at bay). Much like what happened on the western front, there would be a stalemate - except in this case, with more firepower available to the German, not that it would help when they could not maintain aerial and naval superiority.

Eventually, the Anglo-Americans and Friends would plan their assault. Fortress Europe would be a little more fortified, but much as what happened in reality, expect those sneaky English-speakers to spread disinformation and keep the Germans massing at the wrong place and the wrong time. Following ground invasion, it would have been an even bloodier meat grinder in the west than before - but much like in the east, one side would be able to keep more and more armor, infantry, guns and planes arriving while the other faltered. Hint, it wouldn't be the side eating wienerschnitzel. There would be more British, Americans, Aussie, New Zealander, Greek, Polish, French and Czech names on little headstones in fields across France and Germany, but the end would still be the same. Just that in this case, the western Allies would have taken Berlin, and there would have been a bit less open hostility going into the post-WWII cold war which would still occur in some fashion.

Option B:

The USSR shoots first. Considering Stalin was as paranoid and conniving a little gremlin as Hitler but more level-headed about it, this would be the much more likely option.

[Dracoria]

The RAF's big advantage was radar, would you agree with that?

Obviously, but German attacks on radar were never what you'd call "sure things" (assuming that's what you're getting at), and it's also the one thing that would absolutely draw out the entirety of Fighter Command to come out and defend. It'd be asking for a German bomber annihilation.

Considering the Brits had essentially every German operative on the islands in their pocket, the Luftwaffe would be sent after false objectives anyway.

[The Sovietyeto]

The RAF's big advantage was radar, would you agree with that?

Obviously, but German attacks on radar were never what you'd call "sure things" (assuming that's what you're getting at), and it's also the one thing that would absolutely draw out the entirety of Fighter Command to come out and defend. It'd be asking for a German bomber annihilation.

That would be my point. The Luftwaffe lost a great deal trying to take down radar. They came very, very close. But at the last moment, they changed the objective. Does that clarify my argument?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Obviously, but German attacks on radar were never what you'd call "sure things" (assuming that's what you're getting at), and it's also the one thing that would absolutely draw out the entirety of Fighter Command to come out and defend. It'd be asking for a German bomber annihilation.

Considering the Brits had essentially every German operative on the islands in their pocket, the Luftwaffe would be sent after false objectives anyway.

Also true.

Obviously, but German attacks on radar were never what you'd call "sure things" (assuming that's what you're getting at), and it's also the one thing that would absolutely draw out the entirety of Fighter Command to come out and defend. It'd be asking for a German bomber annihilation.

That would be my point. The Luftwaffe lost a great deal trying to take down radar. They came very, very close. But at the last moment, they changed the objective. Does that clarify my argument?

They didn't come nearly close enough to justify the losses they were getting. There's a reason Hitler was OK with switching targets - because the Luftwaffe targeting the radar/airfields/whatever other RAF stuff was on the docket was taking way too long.

[Rio Cana]

It would all go down in North Africa. Given the lack of infrastructure in the area, and Britain's naval superiority, it's doubtful the Germans could have brought their full strength to bear. I'd give both sides a 50% chance of winning, but there'd have to be some sort of ceasefire afterwards given that neither side could realistically make any more moves against the other.

The Germans might have tried to take over the Suez canal or at least disable it but they would have had the taking of Britannia has there main goal. If Britannia fell then the Empire would most likely surrender making things easier for the Germans. The Germans then would most likely have called on British Fascist Oswald Mosley to run Britannia without most of the empire parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

[The Sovietyeto]

Considering the Brits had essentially every German operative on the islands in their pocket, the Luftwaffe would be sent after false objectives anyway.

Also true.

That would be my point. The Luftwaffe lost a great deal trying to take down radar. They came very, very close. But at the last moment, they changed the objective. Does that clarify my argument?

They didn't come nearly close enough to justify the losses they were getting. There's a reason Hitler was OK with switching targets - because the Luftwaffe targeting the radar/airfields/whatever other RAF stuff was on the docket was taking way too long.

That's my point. If they kept to it they could maybe have had Britain in their pocket.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

It would all go down in North Africa. Given the lack of infrastructure in the area, and Britain's naval superiority, it's doubtful the Germans could have brought their full strength to bear. I'd give both sides a 50% chance of winning, but there'd have to be some sort of ceasefire afterwards given that neither side could realistically make any more moves against the other.

The Germans might have tried to take over the Suez canal or at least disable it but they would have had the taking of Britannia has there main goal. If Britannia fell then the Empire would most likely surrender making things easier for the Germans.

Nope.
The Empire had already committed to carrying on the war regardless. It was actually planned to move the entire British government and fleet to Canada if such a thing were nevessary.

The Germans then would most likely have called on British Fascist Oswald Mosley to run Britannia without most of the empire parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

The SOE also had a stay-behind program in place in Britain, with their only goal being to assassinate collaborationist politicians like Mosley and possibly Halifax. Orwell was a member of such an organization.
Don't count on any of them making any public appearances before getting their heads blown off.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Also true.


They didn't come nearly close enough to justify the losses they were getting. There's a reason Hitler was OK with switching targets - because the Luftwaffe targeting the radar/airfields/whatever other RAF stuff was on the docket was taking way too long.

That's my point. If they kept to it they could maybe have had Britain in their pocket.

If they kept to it, they wouldn't have any bombers left and the Chain Home system would in all likelihood still be intact.

[Providence and Port Hope]

Would Germany have won World War 2 ,if Hitler did not invade the Soviet Union? Hitler's reason for invading the Soviet Union: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fRETQ52RrQ

I think they would have won by invading England. If Hitler would have conquered England he would control 1/4 of the world.(or 1/3?)

NSG what is your opinion?

Germany may have won, as their armies would have one less front. Though Operation Sea Lion failed, Britain was barely self sufficient with blockades. If the Japanese had not declared war on the US, there is no doubt about an axis victory. The German forces usually had Kampgruffes, which had no inner defense but strong outer ones, meaning that there would be more forces in France, and elsewhere, with no Soviet invasion.


One thing is for sure, that the Holocaust would have wiped out most Jews in Europe, leaving a few communities if there was Allied victory. This is notable in Greece, where the Jews centered in Thessaloniki remained around 10,000, from a number around 700,000 pre-war.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Would Germany have won World War 2 ,if Hitler did not invade the Soviet Union? Hitler's reason for invading the Soviet Union: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fRETQ52RrQ

I think they would have won by invading England. If Hitler would have conquered England he would control 1/4 of the world.(or 1/3?)

NSG what is your opinion?

Germany may have won, as their armies would have one less front. Though Operation Sea Lion failed, Britain was barely self sufficient with blockades.

The German "blockade" of Britain was more holes than substance. Convoys getting shot up were the exception, not the rule. As I said earlier, the situation in WW1 was much more dire - and Britain survived ther.

If the Japanese had not declared war on the US, there is no doubt about an axis victory.

Lol, nope.
The US would've entered the war against Germany sooner or later, probably as a result of unrestricted U-Boat warfare and sundry resulting German provocations, just like in WW1.
And Germany probably would have lost due to a Soviet invasion, assuming that they wouldn't be taking the offensive first.
And Germany would've collapsed fairly soon anyway, due to the fact that their entire government was a fucking shambles of Hitler kissassery and backstabbing amongst every part of the government, as well as their economic situation dragging them down.

The German forces usually had Kampgruffes, which had no inner defense but strong outer ones,

I don't think you know what a "Kampfgruppe" is, because this makes literally no sense.

meaning that there would be more forces in France, and elsewhere, with no Soviet invasion.

There would be less forces in France, however, if the Soviets invaded Germany, which isn't exactly an unlikely proposition.
To say nothing of the fact that Hitler wasn't going to sit around and do nothing with that big-ass army. You need to use an army like that - you can't just have it sit around and hoover up resources and money.

One thing is for sure, that the Holocaust would have wiped out most Jews in Europe, leaving a few communities if there was Allied victory. This is notable in Greece, where the Jews centered in Thessaloniki remained around 10,000, from a number around 700,000 pre-war.

This is likely.

[Rio Cana]

The Germans did land a soldier on the island of Wight during the last year of the war. Seems he was caught 67 years later.

This is the story, NS people from the UK., is this story for real.

http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2012/11/21/g ... -of-wight/

[The Two Jerseys]

It would all go down in North Africa. Given the lack of infrastructure in the area, and Britain's naval superiority, it's doubtful the Germans could have brought their full strength to bear. I'd give both sides a 50% chance of winning, but there'd have to be some sort of ceasefire afterwards given that neither side could realistically make any more moves against the other.

The Germans might have tried to take over the Suez canal or at least disable it but they would have had the taking of Britannia has there main goal. If Britannia fell then the Empire would most likely surrender making things easier for the Germans. The Germans then would most likely have called on British Fascist Oswald Mosley to run Britannia without most of the empire parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

Bullshit. The British knew that the Germans couldn't touch Canada, India, or Australia if they tried, and without the need to escort convoys to Britain they could concentrate their vastly superior naval strength on wiping the Kriegsmarine out. As the Allies proved, U-boats are no match for dedicated hunter-killer groups, and the surface fleet would simply be overwhelmed by the British battle fleet, to say nothing of their aircraft carriers. With the Kriegsmarine gone, the British could invade Europe at their pleasure.

[Imperial Avantia]

I am russian and my grand parents tell me the story of the facist bastards and the glorius red army. So yes hitler would have won, he shouldnt have invaded yet. he should have waited till he finished the west

[The Tiger Kingdom]

I am russian and my grand parents tell me the story of the facist bastards and the glorius red army. So yes hitler would have won, he shouldnt have invaded yet. he should have waited till he finished the west

Well, if your grandparents say something, it's pretty much unarguable historical fact!

But in reality, seriously, you should read a book on this...or something. Kind of all I can advise.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

The Germans might have tried to take over the Suez canal or at least disable it but they would have had the taking of Britannia has there main goal. If Britannia fell then the Empire would most likely surrender making things easier for the Germans. The Germans then would most likely have called on British Fascist Oswald Mosley to run Britannia without most of the empire parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley

Bullshit. The British knew that the Germans couldn't touch Canada, India, or Australia if they tried, and without the need to escort convoys to Britain they could concentrate their vastly superior naval strength on wiping the Kriegsmarine out. As the Allies proved, U-boats are no match for dedicated hunter-killer groups, and the surface fleet would simply be overwhelmed by the British battle fleet, to say nothing of their aircraft carriers. With the Kriegsmarine gone, the British could invade Europe at their pleasure.

Lrn2date.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Bullshit. The British knew that the Germans couldn't touch Canada, India, or Australia if they tried, and without the need to escort convoys to Britain they could concentrate their vastly superior naval strength on wiping the Kriegsmarine out. As the Allies proved, U-boats are no match for dedicated hunter-killer groups, and the surface fleet would simply be overwhelmed by the British battle fleet, to say nothing of their aircraft carriers. With the Kriegsmarine gone, the British could invade Europe at their pleasure.

Lrn2date.

What exactly is your objection to this?

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Lrn2date.

What exactly is your objection to this?

We, the good guys that is, didn't develop consistent arial anti-sub tech until quite late in the battle of the atlantic and most was due to the work at bletchly park ...

[The Tiger Kingdom]

What exactly is your objection to this?

We, the good guys that is, didn't develop consistent arial anti-sub tech until quite late in the battle of the atlantic and most was due to the work at bletchly park ...

TJ didn't mention "aerial" antisub technology. The Brits had sonar and depth charges, as well as antisub experience from WW1 - they knew what they were doing. Hell, the U-Boat threat in 1940 wasn't nearly as bad as it was in mid-41 or mid-42, mainly due to the fact that the Germans didn't actually have that many U-Boats until then.
And frankly, German submarine development and British antisub development were pretty parallel, in that it was a fairly even fight regardless of the advantages each side had throughout the war until just about the very end, when the Allies pulled out way ahead of the Germans.
And Bletchley Park was pretty active throughout the entire war, so...

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

We, the good guys that is, didn't develop consistent arial anti-sub tech until quite late in the battle of the atlantic and most was due to the work at bletchly park ...

TJ didn't mention "aerial" antisub technology. The Brits had sonar and depth charges, as well as antisub experience from WW1 - they knew what they were doing. Hell, the U-Boat threat in 1940 wasn't nearly as bad as it was in mid-41 or mid-42, mainly due to the fact that the Germans didn't actually have that many U-Boats until then.
And frankly, German submarine development and British antisub development were pretty parallel, in that it was a fairly even fight regardless of the advantages each side had throughout the war until just about the very end, when the Allies pulled out way ahead of the Germans.
And Bletchley Park was pretty active throughout the entire war, so...

Aircraft carriers.

Although BP was established in 1939 it was actually valued until later in the war.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

TJ didn't mention "aerial" antisub technology. The Brits had sonar and depth charges, as well as antisub experience from WW1 - they knew what they were doing. Hell, the U-Boat threat in 1940 wasn't nearly as bad as it was in mid-41 or mid-42, mainly due to the fact that the Germans didn't actually have that many U-Boats until then.
And frankly, German submarine development and British antisub development were pretty parallel, in that it was a fairly even fight regardless of the advantages each side had throughout the war until just about the very end, when the Allies pulled out way ahead of the Germans.
And Bletchley Park was pretty active throughout the entire war, so...

Aircraft carriers.

...Yeah, the British had them. What of it?

Although BP was established in 1939 it was actually valued until later in the war.

Not according to Churchill's memoirs and letters, which explicitly reference using BP cryptography (although he doesn't mention Enigma, probably because that was still really secret) in 1940 during that phase of the Battle of the Atlantic.

[The Two Jerseys]

TJ didn't mention "aerial" antisub technology. The Brits had sonar and depth charges, as well as antisub experience from WW1 - they knew what they were doing. Hell, the U-Boat threat in 1940 wasn't nearly as bad as it was in mid-41 or mid-42, mainly due to the fact that the Germans didn't actually have that many U-Boats until then.
And frankly, German submarine development and British antisub development were pretty parallel, in that it was a fairly even fight regardless of the advantages each side had throughout the war until just about the very end, when the Allies pulled out way ahead of the Germans.
And Bletchley Park was pretty active throughout the entire war, so...

Aircraft carriers.

Although BP was established in 1939 it was actually valued until later in the war.

What about aircraft carriers? The Royal Navy had several at the outbreak of the war. Ask the Bismarck about it. And escort carriers began entering service in '41.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Aircraft carriers.

...Yeah, the British had them. What of it?

Although BP was established in 1939 it was actually valued until later in the war.

Not according to Churchill's memoirs and letters, which explicitly reference using BP cryptography (although he doesn't mention Enigma, probably because that was still really secret) in 1940 during that phase of the Battle of the Atlantic.

Well quite and yes. You point being what exactly? Misunderstanding the reality? Enigma? The fucking Poles broke Enigma 19 fucking 32...fucks sake save me from fucking amateurs.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

...Yeah, the British had them. What of it?

Not according to Churchill's memoirs and letters, which explicitly reference using BP cryptography (although he doesn't mention Enigma, probably because that was still really secret) in 1940 during that phase of the Battle of the Atlantic.

Well quite and yes. You point being what exactly? Misunderstanding the reality? Enigma?

My point being that the U-Boats were absolutely something that the British were capable of coming to grips with at any point in the war.

The fucking Poles broke Enigma 19 fucking 32...fucks sake save me from fucking amateurs.

We're all very impressed by how vulgar you can be. You must be super cool.
Also, they weren't "amateurs", they were members of the Polish military.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Well quite and yes. You point being what exactly? Misunderstanding the reality? Enigma?

My point being that the U-Boats were absolutely something that the British were capable of coming to grips with at any point in the war.

The fucking Poles broke Enigma 19 fucking 32...fucks sake save me from fucking amateurs.

We're all very impressed by how vulgar you can be. You must be super cool.
Also, they weren't "amateurs", they were members of the Polish military.

Clearly you have no clue regarding the subject. Oh and attacking the use of me using swear words? I really don't give a fuck. If you think that my usage of such language is worthy of attacking, rather than my argument? Well it rather proves my point that you are rather the amateur. So coming back to the subject of your amateurism you mentioned Churchill with regard to the battle of the Atlantic. The same Churchill who admitted that the only thing that frightened him most was the U-boot peril.

Oh...by the way....I wasn't calling the incredibly brave Polish "amateurs". I was calling you that. Because your understanding of the subject is amateurish at best.