War on Christmas

[Redwulf]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers,

After all a cross does such a great job of commemorating those Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan, Atheist, etc. soldiers that gave their lives.

[Nation of Quebec]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

It would still be unconstitutional regardless of whether it's a donation or not. Nativity scenes do not belong on public property regardless of the circumstance. There's no way to weasel out of that fact.

[United Marktoria]

Well, I guess my argument was based on what i felt. I should have taken account the actual Law. I was unprepared. I lost. I am humble enough to admit it. But seriously. I would have no qualms of seeing a Nativity scene in front of the City Hall.
I will not argue against any of you any longer. haha. Because if the Law says something against what I said, I automatically lose the argument.
Happy Holidays!

[Farnhamia]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Yes. The government, at any level, should not give the appearance of endorsing a particular religion. The government is like Caesar's wife, there can not be even the hint of an endorsement.

[Tekania]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

It would still be unconstitutional regardless of whether it's a donation or not. Nativity scenes do not belong on public property regardless of the circumstance. There's no way to weasel out of that fact.

Actually the land can be leased out for the display, as long as said lease is applicable to any other private organization which applies as well; and all under the same conditions/requirements... IOW a church or religious group could lease the land for say $200.00 per day... as long as a Wiccan group could do the same, or the united way, or the Rainbow Coalition, etc. etc. etc...

[United Marktoria]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

The Cross has always been the symbol representing the fallen. At least, here in the United States.

[Dyakovo]

But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes.

No, they cannot. The cross is a symbol of christianity, thus we're back to the state endorsing 1 religion over all others.

[Farnhamia]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

Well, then. I guess Arlington National Cemetery is REALLY unconstitutional.

No, because those crosses mark graves of individuals, they aren't seen as an endorsement. Besides, Jew buried there have stars of David, Muslims have crescent moons, I believe.

[Redwulf]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

Well, then. I guess Arlington National Cemetery is REALLY unconstitutional.

IIRC those headstones are selected by the family and are not required to be crosses. As a matter of fact they've recently (after a lawsuit) begun allowing pentacles on the headstones of Pagan service men and women.

[Ifreann]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...

Quite so, because they can't.

And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Of course. The point isn't that they spend money on it, the point is that they display it.

[EVIL BEYOND COMPARE]

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

Well for the Jews they have a star of David, as for the others i don't know but i asume that if they do not know who the body belongs to they will give it a cross

[Ifreann]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

The Cross has always been the symbol representing the fallen. At least, here in the United States.

Quite false.

---

Even a cross could be seen as an endorsement of Christianity, as it is a symbol of the religion. What if some soldiers were Jewish, Muslim, Atheist etc? Why not just create some secular monument commemorating those lost in battle?

Well for the Jews they have a star of David, as for the others i don't know but i asume that if they do not know who the body belongs to they will give it a cross

Here is a list of emblems that the government will use for headstones.

[Redwulf]

Here is a list of emblems that the government will use for headstones.

How exactly does one go about COPYRIGHTING a religious symbol?

[Milks Empire]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

The City Government isn't enforcing any ideals on anyone.

Yes, they are. By virtue of the blatantly religious scene, they are. A menorah would be the same thing, but with a different religion.

Being blatantly religious isn't actually the problem - being the only (blatantly) religious display is effectively endorsing one choice. If they were equally representative of any (every?) other option, there'd be no problem - but that way lies madness.

The United States government is not supposed to endorse religion over no religion, no religion over religion, or one religion over another religion. It's supposed to stay out of the religion business entirely. Having displays for all of them is just as much a problem has having displays for only one.

A city town hall isnt the United States Government--if the City Charter has no provision for being neutral with regards to religion then they have not the obligation you speak.

Localities cannot violate the United States Constitution.

[Ifreann]

Here is a list of emblems that the government will use for headstones.

How exactly does one go about COPYRIGHTING a religious symbol?

Yeah, I thought that was odd.

[Milks Empire]

Meh, only ones around here, surprisingly enough, that place nativity scenes out are Churches...

100% within the bounds of the Constitution.

The city always does things like light-up Candycanes, santas, wreathes and reindeer/sleighs...

100% festive.

Which I actually rather like...

Seconded.

[The Alma Mater]

The city always does things like light-up Candycanes, santas, wreathes and reindeer/sleighs...

100% festive.

Not really - Santa and his sleigh as wel as the wreathes are quite religious in origin. Not Christian true- but most Christmas traditions aren't
Still, one can not just oppose the Christian aspects and allow all others without being a hypocrite in this instance.

[Maurepas]

The city always does things like light-up Candycanes, santas, wreathes and reindeer/sleighs...

100% festive.

Not really - Santa and his sleigh as wel as the wreathes are quite religious in origin. Not Christian true- but most Christmas traditions aren't
Still, one can not just oppose the Christian aspects and allow all others without being a hypocrite in this instance.

True, but I think they've been stripped down to a point that the original interpretations of them are nigh unrecognizable...

[HairyHares]

That was to prevent making a church of America. They didn't want something like the Catholic Church in Europe be established in America. It only leads to non-religious folks joining for power.

Now that is grasping at straws.

I'd be very surprised if they truly envisioned and feared a Catholic Church coming about otherwise.

I don't think they did , what they wanted to avoid was the ones in charge deciding which religion you had to be . I mean they came out of a background that changed at least 4 times England started out Catholic and then Henry the 8th made up his own , then it went back and forth between the two . much better to separate church and state

[Ana Daniellasia]

I'm Jewish, but I don't get pissed off when people wish me a Merry Christmas... I guess it's just the fun of winter. Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Solstice, or anything else are really celebrating the joy of winter, and how much fun it is. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Ruthless Slaughter]

I say Merry Christmas and if someone tries to 'correct' me I offer to agree to disagree if it means that much to them. I got angry when people would get fired for saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays which is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion, but I'll save my rants about how much I hate the people who want total political correctness for another thread. For the most part it doesn't bother me and most people are pretty accepting of either greeting.

[Tokos]

The only major war on Christmas I see is all the early commercial crap in November and even October. That's worse, because rather than trying to get rid of the festival, it's taking it and then milking it disrespectfully, which is sacreligious.

[The Alma Mater]

I say Merry Christmas and if someone tries to 'correct' me I offer to agree to disagree if it means that much to them. I got angry when people would get fired for saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays which is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion, but I'll save my rants about how much I hate the people who want total political correctness for another thread. For the most part it doesn't bother me and most people are pretty accepting of either greeting.

Hmm. I vaguely remember that when we had this topic last year (well ok, one of the 3 dozen times we had the topic - this IS NSG after all) someone brought up that the Christian God is not that nice to nonbelievers and people who believe in other Gods than himself (him being a jealous god and all) according to the Bible.
As such, wishing such a person a merry Christmas is somewhat equivalent to wishing a Jew a "happy Hitlers Birthday".

Yes, it is reaching But it stuck.

[HairyHares]

There is nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas. I'm an Agnostic. I still celebrate it. People say,"Well, thats out of line. You can't celebrate Christmas if your not Christian!"
So, what? I can celebrate what ever I want! Its my choice! Christmas today is so secular, that it doesn't matter if your an Atheist and you celebrate it. Its tradition.
And Yes. Church and State should be separate. But to go as far as to complain that "Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it. The City Government isn't enforcing any ideals on anyone. There just putting up decorations for the Holidays. If these Decorations say ,"The Non Christians must DIE!" then we have a problem. Main point is, people are making a big fuss over a piece of wood that shaped like a Nativity scene. Its not going to become alive and go on a town-wide killing spree, is it? Its just a symbol. Stop complaining.
Hey, if your Atheist, string up some Lights that spell out,"There is no God".
If your Jewish, sport that Star of David
Hey, I might even put up a light up Question Mark!(because i'm Agnostic, if you forgot)

Best idea I have heard , now where would I find a light up Question Mark and can we put it in front of the town hall

[Ruthless Slaughter]

I say Merry Christmas and if someone tries to 'correct' me I offer to agree to disagree if it means that much to them. I got angry when people would get fired for saying Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays which is absolutely ludicrous in my opinion, but I'll save my rants about how much I hate the people who want total political correctness for another thread. For the most part it doesn't bother me and most people are pretty accepting of either greeting.

Hmm. I vaguely remember that when we had this topic last year (well ok, one of the 3 dozen times we had the topic - this IS NSG after all) someone brought up that the Christian God is not that nice to nonbelievers and people who believe in other Gods than himself (him being a jealous god and all) according to the Bible.
As such, wishing such a person a merry Christmas is somewhat equivalent to wishing a Jew a "happy Hitlers Birthday".

Yes, it is reaching But it stuck.

That possibly made my day right there, just wanted to let you know. Yeah the Old Testament god is little bit of a jealous, over-possessive child with the power to end the world. I'm part of the more forgiving, less fundamentalist, and ultimately more sane part of Christianity