War on Christmas

[Buffett and Colbert]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

The City Government isn't enforcing any ideals on anyone.

Yes, they are. By virtue of the blatantly religious scene, they are. A menorah would be the same thing, but with a different religion.

Being blatantly religious isn't actually the problem - being the only (blatantly) religious display is effectively endorsing one choice. If they were equally representative of any (every?) other option, there'd be no problem - but that way lies madness.

The United States government is not supposed to endorse religion over no religion, no religion over religion, or one religion over another religion. It's supposed to stay out of the religion business entirely. Having displays for all of them is just as much a problem has having displays for only one.

Is it unconsitutional?

The question I really mean however are local governments covered under the 14th amendment?

No, they can do whatever they damn well please with regards to the Constitution.

[Ifreann]

I've never believed in this so-called "War on Christmas" and always thought of it as newspeak for "hey, the government is finally getting around to enacting separation of church and state." It's unconstitutional for the government to be endorsing what some people refer to as a Christian holiday.

If anything, I'd say that Christmas is becoming more and more shoved in our faces. The malls around here are already blasting crappy Christmas music, the neighbors already have their lights up, and there's always a plethora of Christmas specials on television each year.

To some extent here there's been a wrap around effect, at least on the radio. The ads are making a point of how this isn't a christmas ad(usually with arguments with the background music), but they still have a sale.

[Warp Dwellers]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

The City Government isn't enforcing any ideals on anyone.

Yes, they are. By virtue of the blatantly religious scene, they are. A menorah would be the same thing, but with a different religion.

What happens if someone sneezes in a Town Hall? From a legal standpoint?

[The Alma Mater]

What happens if someone sneezes in a Town Hall? From a legal standpoint?

The persons who says "bless you" is fired

[United Marktoria]

If the White House has a large Cross in the front lawn, then there is a problem.
But the City Hall is not the Federal Government. Frankly, it is kind of Pathetic that people get mad because of a bunch of symbols. If the Town Hall can't put up Nativity scenes, then the Residents can't put up whatever they want. Its Freedom of Expression. No one is enforcing religion on anybody. Seriously. If a Jew drives down main street, and sees the Nativity scene, is he going to immediately convert to Christianity? No. He isn't. If the City Council does there job, and govern justly and fairly over the city, with no hindrance on any religion, and they put up Harmless symbols in front of the City Hall, does that call for "unfair" governance? Are they excluding all Religions out, and supporting just one? No! They are not. They are just celebrating the Holidays. All symbols of Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and any other Religion in this time are not signifying their respected Religions, but the Holidays as a whole. You see, a lot of people today mix up Facts and beliefs. The Fact is, City Council placed up a piece of wood that is carved into the shape of the Nativity scene. Religion is never Fact. Facts are practical, stubborn, down to earth things. In a factual way, it is Fact that a big hunk of Wood carved like the Nativity Scene is in the front of City Hall. Belief on the other hand, is a different story. Maybe City Council is Christian, and they just want to celebrate the Holidays the way they usually celebrate it? If thats the case, then some Atheist who BELIEVES that God doesn't exist comes driving by, sees the Nativity Scene, gets angry because its against his Beliefs. That is surely going to happen. And what I say is Let it be. Funny thing about Facts. They never contradict each other. Because Facts are stubborn truths. Beliefs, on the other hand, are opinions, and will most likely always contradict each other. So, whatever the City Council ever does, its usually going to piss someone off. I just say, let it be. It doesn't matter. Its a symbol. Its not the Federal Government. Its a local government. Let it go. It's not going to kill somebody. Some people take this way out of proportion.

[United Marktoria]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

Its not Unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
This is the part of the First Amendment that deals with Religion.
First word is "Congress"... City Council isn't Congress.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
The act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't considered a "Law". Its just a decoration.
"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
hmm... the act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't really prohibiting Jews from celebrating Hanukkah, is it?
Your statement saying its "unconstitutional" is false.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Got a Christmas card from the Royal Mail (basically them begging for my custom after they hanged themselves with the strikes) which had "Merry Christmas" on it, which surprised me.

I'd have thought they would have tried to be all PC on it and avoided that sort of thing, but apparently not.

Yeah I got that.
First Xmas letter of the year.

[Maurepas]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

Its not Unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
This is the part of the First Amendment that deals with Religion.
First word is "Congress"... City Council isn't Congress.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
The act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't considered a "Law". Its just a decoration.
"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
hmm... the act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't really prohibiting Jews from celebrating Hanukkah, is it?
Your statement saying its "unconstitutional" is false.

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

[Buffett and Colbert]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

Its not Unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
This is the part of the First Amendment that deals with Religion.
First word is "Congress"... City Council isn't Congress.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
The act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't considered a "Law". Its just a decoration.
"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
hmm... the act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't really prohibiting Jews from celebrating Hanukkah, is it?
Your statement saying its "unconstitutional" is false.

Fail. Just fail.

Yes it is unconstitutional. First of all, the Constitution establishes a secular state. The state includes all public property, which encompasses City Hall. Congress is the body of people that make the laws. The Constitution is saying that Congress cannot make a law with regards to religion, other than what the Constitution already states. City Council isn't making a law when it puts up a Nativity Scene. It's only breaking it. And the Constitution is referring to private citizens' ability to exercise their right to religion, not the government.

[The Alma Mater]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

[Buffett and Colbert]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

Why? That would still advocate theism, which would be unconstitutional.

How about they just not put anything religious there at all? You know, secular...

[Maurepas]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

Eh, not me, you're not allowed to establish any religion in a legal sense, so that means no religion in the courts...

I just dont view holiday decorations in a legal sense, especially when they're taken down after a few months anyway...

[Buffett and Colbert]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

Eh, not me, you're not allowed to establish any religion in a legal sense, so that means no religion in the courts...

I just dont view holiday decorations in a legal sense, especially when they're taken down after a few months anyway...

Christmas lights and a tree are one thing.

Nativity scenes and crosses are another.

[The Alma Mater]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

Why? That would still advocate theism, which would be unconstitutional.

No, it would just show that the court is well aware and respects that some people believe there are other laws - but that the court itself will only adhere to the ones of the land.

How about they just not put anything religious there at all? You know, secular...

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

[Tekania]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

Its not Unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
This is the part of the First Amendment that deals with Religion.
First word is "Congress"... City Council isn't Congress.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
The act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't considered a "Law". Its just a decoration.
"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
hmm... the act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't really prohibiting Jews from celebrating Hanukkah, is it?
Your statement saying its "unconstitutional" is false.

<Cough>

That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. And the General Assembly shall not prescribe any religious test whatever, or confer any peculiar privileges or advantages on any sect or denomination, or pass any law requiring or authorizing any religious society, or the people of any district within this Commonwealth, to levy on themselves or others, any tax for the erection or repair of any house of public worship, or for the support of any church or ministry; but it shall be left free to every person to select his religious instructor, and to make for his support such private contract as he shall please.

Drafted initially by the same people who drafted the one for the Bill of Rights... And which means the same thing... City Hall using public funds to erect a nativity scene on public property is most certainly a violation of the establishment clause...

[Maurepas]

I agree, people make far too big a deal about this sort of thing...A nativity decoration for Christmas is very different from some idiot wanting to put the Ten Commandments in a Courtroom, for instance...

If they also put up some laws from other religions on the courtroom walls, and make sure they are all displayed under something that symbolises the laws of the land so that it is clear that no God is above the law... that would be fine by me.

Why? That would still advocate theism, which would be unconstitutional.

No, it would just show that the court is well aware and respects that some people believe there are other laws - but that the court itself will only adhere to the ones of the land.

It is only aware in the sense that it doesnt recognize any of them...There are no "other laws" when it comes to the United States Government...

All "other laws" are equally beneath it...

[Buffett and Colbert]

No, it would just show that the court is well aware and respects that some people believe there are other laws - but that the court itself will only adhere to the ones of the land.

There are over 4,000 gods that man has made up. You expect the court to honour all of them?

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

To respect all religion, they should simply not try and favour any over another.

[United Marktoria]

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

To respect all religion, they should simply not try and favour any over another.

They can still be tolerant and have Christian symbols.

[United Marktoria]

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

To respect all religion, they should simply not try and favour any over another.

They can still be tolerant and have Christian symbols.

And I didn't write this...

[Maurepas]

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

To respect all religion, they should simply not try and favour any over another.

They can still be tolerant and not have Christian religious symbols.

fixed,

[Nation of Quebec]

Respect for all religions and lack thereof should be the cornerstone of US society. It isn't of course in practice, but hey.
Putting up some Bentham, Spinoza and Kant would also be nice

To respect all religion, they should simply not try and favour any over another.

They can still be tolerant and have Christian symbols.

No, because that still shows favoritism and a government endorsement to Christianity over other religions and the non-religious. The government shouldn't have any religious symbols at all on any public property. That's the only way it can fully uphold the Constitution while offending and favoring nobody.

[Dyakovo]

"Theres a Nativity scene in front of Town Hall. They should take that down! Its against my beliefs!" is really pushing it.

How about if it's actually unconstitutional? Then what?

Its not Unconstitutional.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
This is the part of the First Amendment that deals with Religion.
First word is "Congress"... City Council isn't Congress.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."
The act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't considered a "Law". Its just a decoration.
"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
hmm... the act of putting up a Nativity scene isn't really prohibiting Jews from celebrating Hanukkah, is it?
Your statement saying its "unconstitutional" is false.

<Cough>

That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief; but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities. And the General Assembly shall not prescribe any religious test whatever, or confer any peculiar privileges or advantages on any sect or denomination, or pass any law requiring or authorizing any religious society, or the people of any district within this Commonwealth, to levy on themselves or others, any tax for the erection or repair of any house of public worship, or for the support of any church or ministry; but it shall be left free to every person to select his religious instructor, and to make for his support such private contract as he shall please.

Drafted initially by the same people who drafted the one for the Bill of Rights... And which means the same thing... City Hall using public funds to erect a nativity scene on public property is most certainly a violation of the establishment clause...

you beat me to it...

[Ifreann]

If the White House has a large Cross in the front lawn, then there is a problem.
But the City Hall is not the Federal Government.

Do you honestly think local governments are allowed to violate the constitution? State governments aren't.

Frankly, it is kind of Pathetic that people get mad because of a bunch of symbols.

Its the whole endorsing one religion over another that bothers people.

If the Town Hall can't put up Nativity scenes, then the Residents can't put up whatever they want. Its Freedom of Expression. No one is enforcing religion on anybody. Seriously.

And private residents are perfectly entitled to put up a nativity scene, if they so choose. The Town Hall cannot.

If a Jew drives down main street, and sees the Nativity scene, is he going to immediately convert to Christianity? No. He isn't.

Completely irrelevant.

If the City Council does there job, and govern justly and fairly over the city, with no hindrance on any religion, and they put up Harmless symbols in front of the City Hall, does that call for "unfair" governance?

Yes. They are endorsing one religion over all others.

Are they excluding all Religions out, and supporting just one? No! They are not.

Depends what symbols they put up, but unless they put of symbols of every religion then they are endorsing one or more over all others.

They are just celebrating the Holidays. All symbols of Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, and any other Religion in this time are not signifying their respected Religions, but the Holidays as a whole.

Yeah, a Nativity scene signifies Kwanzaa. Sure.

You see, a lot of people today mix up Facts and beliefs. The Fact is, City Council placed up a piece of wood that is carved into the shape of the Nativity scene.

Which they should not do, as it endorses Christianity over all other religions.

Religion is never Fact. Facts are practical, stubborn, down to earth things. In a factual way, it is Fact that a big hunk of Wood carved like the Nativity Scene is in the front of City Hall. Belief on the other hand, is a different story. Maybe City Council is Christian, and they just want to celebrate the Holidays the way they usually celebrate it? If thats the case, then some Atheist who BELIEVES that God doesn't exist comes driving by, sees the Nativity Scene, gets angry because its against his Beliefs. That is surely going to happen. And what I say is Let it be. Funny thing about Facts. They never contradict each other. Because Facts are stubborn truths. Beliefs, on the other hand, are opinions, and will most likely always contradict each other. So, whatever the City Council ever does, its usually going to piss someone off. I just say, let it be. It doesn't matter. Its a symbol. Its not the Federal Government. Its a local government. Let it go. It's not going to kill somebody. Some people take this way out of proportion.

And some people just want to ignore the whole thing. Sure, its not the end of the world. But its still a bad thing. A bad thing that's easily preventable. So why not just prevent it? There. Simple. Want a Nativity scene? Make your own, because Town Hall can't.

[United Marktoria]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

[Tekania]

I see what you are saying. O.k. I guess I was wrong. Sorry, folks. But the City Council can still put up cross in front of City Hall, to commemorate Soldiers, or other noble causes. I am fairly certain that the act of me stating this will open another can of worms...
And if the Nativity scene is a donation to City Hall, and no public funds were made to buy the Nativity scene, is it still "unconstitutional" to display it?

Only if its placement is under the same mandate that would be allowed for the voluntary rental or loan of use for any other organization or religious group.... IOW, the city council would have to erect a donated menorah, some donated wiccan symbol, or any other various symbols under the same criteria/conditions as said cross...