The T in LGBT

[Distruzio]

Isn't an inversion of a binary still a binary?

The opposite of the concept of binary is non-binary.

Not the opposite. The inversion.

[Luveria]

That has nothing to do with attraction to transgender women, so I don't see why you're bringing it up.

Of course it has nothing to do with attraction to people like you and Magnolia. You are women full stop, OK, I get this, and won't ever question, and will always challenge those who do.

But liking people like you more for their personalities and the level of shit they had to endure does not equates any possible level of non-heterosexuality.

Liking male-born women more because they look different, especially before the transition is complete... Sounds like a slight bisexuality to me, and they can indeed claim a non-hetero identity if they want (the point I tried to make).

The problem with your belief is you're ignoring how heterosexual males are attracted to transgender women before, during, and after transitioning. There's no bisexuality involved. I get it that you are bisexual, but don't try saying other people are bisexual too in some way for being attracted to transgender women.

Transgender women too worry about being accused of fetishism if they have a preference for other transgender women. It's not only heterosexual men who get accused of such things.

Attraction to transgender females should be viewed as entirely normal instead of being made out to be some kind of fetish. That makes people feel uncomfortable about accepting their attraction to transgender people when there are people encouraging a belief that a legitimate preference is a fetish.

So not all T-lover guys are fetishists as Distruzio tried to imply?

Oh, gosh, it's so confusing.

They aren't fetishists. They are men who have a primary attraction to transgender females. When people allow it to be considered a fetish, it's demeaning to transgender women because it implies it's a fetish to be attracted to them, which isn't any more likely than having a fetish for attraction to cisgender females.

[Condunum]

Presenting this in a passive, friendly way would have done you a lot of good to stop this whole argument, you know.

That's what I did the first time. When people called me a transphobe, misinterpreted my point to make it look bad, accused me of deliberate ignorance i.e. trolling,
and decided "And yes, Jormengand is ignorant," I got progressively less passive and friendly.

Here is your initial problem.

"Sticking them together is a failed attempt to make us look like a little less of a minority."

That little bit right there is exactly what was picked up on, and you failed to squelch that. If you think it's a bad thing that they're lumped together, you're wrong. If you think it's a good thing but inappropriate, you're wrong. If you just don't like it because there's different core issues (even though LGBT is about reaching the goals more than the goals themselves), you're wrong.

[Distruzio]

So not all T-lover guys are fetishists as Distruzio tried to imply?

Oh, gosh, it's so confusing.

They aren't fetishists. They are men who have a primary attraction to transgender females. When people allow it to be considered a fetish, it's demeaning to transgender women because it implies it's a fetish to be attracted to them, which isn't any more likely than having a fetish for attraction to cisgender females.

Indeed.

[Luveria]

So not all T-lover guys are fetishists as Distruzio tried to imply?

Oh, gosh, it's so confusing.

If the man identifies as a "t-lover" then he is a fetishist. That's what Luveria is saying. That's what I said.

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

[Grenartia]

After a friend requesting I make this and my urge to make a thread, I've decided to make a transgender discussion thread. Though I'll put up some questions at the start, this is for any questions, advice, discussion, etc. that is related to being transgendered. I know it's pointless to ask for people to keep it polite, but keep in mind that unless you want to get eaten alive you probably shouldn't come in here just to be a douchebag towards trans* people.

Here are a few words you may not know but will probably see being used here (please TG me if you want me to add any other terms):
Trans/transgender/basically anything that sounds like that- Being trans* is when your gender isn't the same as the sex you were born with. Because, yes, your gender can differ from your sex.
Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.
Cis/cisgender- Someone whose gender matches the sex they were born with.

What do you think of trans* folk? Are you trans*?

I think that trans* people are just normal people. They deserve to be treated with respect and given rights, just like everyone else.
I've been questioning my gender for a while and have always felt a bit different when it came to gender, but I'm not sure I'll know for certain if I'm trans* or just confused for a while.

No point in asking "tolerant" people to be tolerant of other's religious and political beliefs.

HOW DARE YOU NOT ACCEPT MY BIGOTED BULLSHIT!?!

[Distruzio]

If the man identifies as a "t-lover" then he is a fetishist. That's what Luveria is saying. That's what I said.

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

I know, love.

[Kerynntopia]

Back on a thing that made me want to post here earlier, I'm trying to understand why people think being trans* is the same as being L, G, or B. One is sex/gender mismatch, the other is sexuality. The fact that I'm trans has no bearing on my sexuality. The fact that I'm pan has no effect on my being trans*.

[Jormengand]

That little bit right there is exactly what was picked up on, and you failed to squelch that. If you think it's a bad thing that they're lumped together, you're wrong. If you think it's a good thing but inappropriate, you're wrong. If you just don't like it because there's different core issues (even though LGBT is about reaching the goals more than the goals themselves), you're wrong.

Let's hear the views of another person who actually has experience of both issues, shall we?

I can't believe how stupid that person is. My GI has nothing to do with my sexuality. They are not intertwined, they are not linked, they are two facets of who I am.

I so, soooooo want to copy that across to the thread, but I daren't.

You have my permission.

I'm Trans*, I'm pan. These are facets. And solidarity? I've been told by gay men and straight women that I shouldn't bother with transition because it'd be easier to be a man.

Yeah, so basically, stop trying to pretend they're the same. They're not. As a person with experience of both, and how they're different, they're different. And another person who actually knows what she's talking about agrees.

[Luveria]

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

I know, love.

It was addressed to HIRJ to doubly clarify, because there seemed to be a lot of confusion about it.

Back on a thing that made me want to post here earlier, I'm trying to understand why people think being trans* is the same as being L, G, or B. One is sex/gender mismatch, the other is sexuality. The fact that I'm trans has no bearing on my sexuality. The fact that I'm pan has no effect on my being trans*.

It's definitely not the same, but it's part of the same movement of societal acceptance.

[Condunum]

Back on a thing that made me want to post here earlier, I'm trying to understand why people think being trans* is the same as being L, G, or B. One is sex/gender mismatch, the other is sexuality. The fact that I'm trans has no bearing on my sexuality. The fact that I'm pan has no effect on my being trans*.

It's that the struggle is so interconnected, they're in the same movement. Since most things that benefit one do or can benefit the other, it's one movement together. That's what happens when sexuality and gender are interconnected issues in society.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

If the man identifies as a "t-lover" then he is a fetishist. That's what Luveria is saying. That's what I said.

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

I know you have the right to be sensitive and such but...

If saying one is gay or lesbian isn't a fetish, why using a label that tells people you like transgender females would make of you a fetishist? Why would they have to "hide" it, if the truth is, they indeed prefer transgender females? I understand it better, but still not completely. .___.

[Luveria]

Back on a thing that made me want to post here earlier, I'm trying to understand why people think being trans* is the same as being L, G, or B. One is sex/gender mismatch, the other is sexuality. The fact that I'm trans has no bearing on my sexuality. The fact that I'm pan has no effect on my being trans*.

It's that the struggle is so interconnected, they're in the same movement. Since most things that benefit one do or can benefit the other, it's one movement together. That's what happens when sexuality and gender are interconnected issues in society.

There's also an an inseparable overlap for reasons such as if a transgender person transitions, they end up being subjected to marriage restrictions for now being in a same-sex relationship. It's pointless separating it when it's the same movement for acceptance.

[Condunum]

That little bit right there is exactly what was picked up on, and you failed to squelch that. If you think it's a bad thing that they're lumped together, you're wrong. If you think it's a good thing but inappropriate, you're wrong. If you just don't like it because there's different core issues (even though LGBT is about reaching the goals more than the goals themselves), you're wrong.

Let's hear the views of another person who actually has experience of both issues, shall we?

I can't believe how stupid that person is. My GI has nothing to do with my sexuality. They are not intertwined, they are not linked, they are two facets of who I am.

I so, soooooo want to copy that across to the thread, but I daren't.

You have my permission.

I'm Trans*, I'm pan. These are facets. And solidarity? I've been told by gay men and straight women that I shouldn't bother with transition because it'd be easier to be a man.

Yeah, so basically, stop trying to pretend they're the same. They're not. As a person with experience of both, and how they're different, they're different. And another person who actually knows what she's talking about agrees.

Jesus fucking christ, I'm not pretending they're the same. I'm saying they're so interconnected that there's no point in separating the two. Obviously you cannot fucking see that, but at this point that's not surprising to me in the slightest.

[Condunum]

It's that the struggle is so interconnected, they're in the same movement. Since most things that benefit one do or can benefit the other, it's one movement together. That's what happens when sexuality and gender are interconnected issues in society.

There's also an an inseparable overlap for reasons such as if a transgender person transitions, they end up being subjected to marriage restrictions for now being in a same-sex relationship. It's pointless separating it when it's the same movement for acceptance.

*points Jorm to this* DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND NOW?

[Jormengand]

I'm saying they're so interconnected that there's no point in separating the two.

No point? No fucking point in realising that the fact that I like fucking guys isn't the same thing as not feeling like one? No fucking point in realising that they're ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FUCKING ASPECTS of who I am, of who Karen is, and I for one would very much like to see you recognise that, thank you very much.

*points Jorm to this* DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND NOW?

Yes, I fucking understand. We're being discriminated against for the same reason. Do you not think I noticed that after BEING BOTH OF THEM? No, what I realise is that the fact that I'm bi and the fact that I'm fluid are nothing to do with each other, and if you had a speck of understanding of trans people, so would you.

[Luveria]

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

I know you have the right to be sensitive and such but...

If saying one is gay or lesbian isn't a fetish, why using a label that tells people you like transgender females would make of you a fetishist? Why would they have to "hide" it, if the truth is, they indeed prefer transgender females? I understand it better, but still not completely. .___.

I've specifically said it isn't a fetish, and that it's wrong for them to act like it's one. The only reason it's considered a fetish is because of them acting like it's a fetish. They shouldn't hide it, but what they should do is stop fetishising it and start treating their preference like an actual preference.

Distruzio and I have a preference for transgender women and we don't fetishise it. I don't see why other people can't treat it as a preference too.

[Distruzio]

That is what I am saying. They make it into a fetish by identifying as a "t-lover", but the preference itself isn't a fetish in any way.

I know you have the right to be sensitive and such but...

If saying one is gay or lesbian isn't a fetish, why using a label that tells people you like transgender females would make of you a fetishist? Why would they have to "hide" it, if the truth is, they indeed prefer transgender females? I understand it better, but still not completely. .___.

Well, lets be clear about the term, "fetishists." Fetishist isn't an identity. It's a preference.

I prefer attractive slender women. I only find feminine women attractive. Ergo, I am a fetishist in that regard.

In no way is the term "fetishist" an insult or derogatory. It's a way of making a distinction between those like myself, who find the gender of a transgender attractive rather than the sexuality of that transgender.

In other words, I like to fuck women. I don't like to fuck "chicks with dicks".

I don't want to fuck a man. I don't want to fuck a man with a cunt.

Make sense?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I dunno, I don't think the trans community really embraces the gender binary. Rather the reverse really.

Isn't an inversion of a binary still a binary?

Oh that's a pedantic point and you know it .

In all seriousness the abolition of the binary is a fairly big thing within queer movements. Not the abolition of gender, something I don't support, but merely the abolition of the binary.

[The Steel Magnolia]

That little bit right there is exactly what was picked up on, and you failed to squelch that. If you think it's a bad thing that they're lumped together, you're wrong. If you think it's a good thing but inappropriate, you're wrong. If you just don't like it because there's different core issues (even though LGBT is about reaching the goals more than the goals themselves), you're wrong.

Let's hear the views of another person who actually has experience of both issues, shall we?

I can't believe how stupid that person is. My GI has nothing to do with my sexuality. They are not intertwined, they are not linked, they are two facets of who I am.

I so, soooooo want to copy that across to the thread, but I daren't.

You have my permission.

I'm Trans*, I'm pan. These are facets. And solidarity? I've been told by gay men and straight women that I shouldn't bother with transition because it'd be easier to be a man.

Yeah, so basically, stop trying to pretend they're the same. They're not. As a person with experience of both, and how they're different, they're different. And another person who actually knows what she's talking about agrees.

Oh they're different, no one's objecting to that.

But they're still queer. That's the unifying front.

[Condunum]

I'm saying they're so interconnected that there's no point in separating the two.

No point? No fucking point in realising that the fact that I like fucking guys isn't the same thing as not feeling like one? No fucking point in realising that they're ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FUCKING ASPECTS of who I am, of who Karen is, and I for one would very much like to see you recognise that, thank you very much.

*points Jorm to this* DO YOU FUCKING UNDERSTAND NOW?

Yes, I fucking understand. We're being discriminated against for the same reason. Do you not think I noticed that after BEING BOTH OF THEM? No, what I realise is that the fact that I'm bi and the fact that I'm fluid are nothing to do with each other, and if you had a speck of understanding of trans people, so would you.

I am trans, and your inability to read seems to have allowed you to miss that. I'm also polysexual, so you're not coming from any sort of unique perspective here. If you have to make the declaration that they're separate issues, fine. That's your right. But you're doing it with an agrresive, ignorant voice that somehow comes out as, "FUCK LGBT IT SHOULD BE TWO SEPERATE GROUPS" even though there's clear evidence that each stride for sexual equality has aided gender equality, and the two could be dealt with together, at once.

Hence the reason why the LGBT movement exists

[Jormengand]

Oh they're different, no one's objecting to that.

You're not. Power to TSM. Trouble is, others are, or saying "They're so similar there's no point in differentiating." Which is wrong in the face.

[Agritum]

No point? No fucking point in realising that the fact that I like fucking guys isn't the same thing as not feeling like one? No fucking point in realising that they're ENTIRELY DIFFERENT FUCKING ASPECTS of who I am, of who Karen is, and I for one would very much like to see you recognise that, thank you very much.


Yes, I fucking understand. We're being discriminated against for the same reason. Do you not think I noticed that after BEING BOTH OF THEM? No, what I realise is that the fact that I'm bi and the fact that I'm fluid are nothing to do with each other, and if you had a speck of understanding of trans people, so would you.

I am trans, and your inability to read seems to have allowed you to miss that. I'm also polysexual, so you're not coming from any sort of unique perspective here. If you have to make the declaration that they're separate issues, fine. That's your right. But you're doing it with an agrresive, ignorant voice that somehow comes out as, "FUCK LGBT IT SHOULD BE TWO SEPERATE GROUPS" even though there's clear evidence that each stride for sexual equality has aided gender equality, and the two could be dealt with together, at once.

Hence the reason why the LGBT movement exists

....I thought you were cis. The more you know.

[Luveria]

I know you have the right to be sensitive and such but...

If saying one is gay or lesbian isn't a fetish, why using a label that tells people you like transgender females would make of you a fetishist? Why would they have to "hide" it, if the truth is, they indeed prefer transgender females? I understand it better, but still not completely. .___.

Well, lets be clear about the term, "fetishists." Fetishist isn't an identity. It's a preference.

Except in this context it can't even be considered a fetish because attraction to transwomen isn't a fetish in any way by the meaning of the word.

I prefer attractive slender women. I only find feminine women attractive. Ergo, I am a fetishist in that regard.

Not really. That's just your preference for feminine women.

It's a way of making a distinction between those like myself, who find the gender of a transgender attractive rather than the sexuality of that transgender.

That's how I am too, and that's what the preference itself is.

In other words, I like to fuck women. I don't like to fuck "chicks with dicks".

I don't want to fuck a man. I don't want to fuck a man with a cunt.

Make sense?

That reminds me of how gay men by definition aren't interested in transgender women, so that really puts a hole into the belief that being attracted to a woman who happens to have a dick, is somehow homosexuality.

[Jormengand]

"FUCK LGBT IT SHOULD BE TWO SEPERATE GROUPS"

Spoiler alert here:

That
Is
Not
What
I'm
Saying

I'm saying that trans issues are not "Close enough" to gay issues, and you should realise that they're different and there is a point in treating them differently.