The T in LGBT

[The Steel Magnolia]

After a friend requesting I make this and my urge to make a thread, I've decided to make a transgender discussion thread. Though I'll put up some questions at the start, this is for any questions, advice, discussion, etc. that is related to being transgendered. I know it's pointless to ask for people to keep it polite, but keep in mind that unless you want to get eaten alive you probably shouldn't come in here just to be a douchebag towards trans* people.

Here are a few words you may not know but will probably see being used here (please TG me if you want me to add any other terms):
Trans/transgender/basically anything that sounds like that- Being trans* is when your gender isn't the same as the sex you were born with. Because, yes, your gender can differ from your sex.
Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.
Cis/cisgender- Someone whose gender matches the sex they were born with.

What do you think of trans* folk? Are you trans*?

I think that trans* people are just normal people. They deserve to be treated with respect and given rights, just like everyone else.
I've been questioning my gender for a while and have always felt a bit different when it came to gender, but I'm not sure I'll know for certain if I'm trans* or just confused for a while.

No point in asking "tolerant" people to be tolerant of other's religious and political beliefs.

Dude. I'm a religious political centrist. I'm also a trans lesbian.

Division on political lines won't do much.

[The Rich Port]

So, yeah... 'Bout those allies.

I'll say it again. You support us. That's great, but please don't try to make allies part of LGBT. LGBT is the representation of those who are part of the unequal minority of sexual and gender oppression. It's a bit more than that, but that's the easiest I can put it into one sentence. I'll just reiterate to make it clear: I am not telling you to stop in any way. I'm just asking you to recognize the rights boundary between you and I.

... What "rights boundary"?

[The Steel Magnolia]

I'll say it again. You support us. That's great, but please don't try to make allies part of LGBT. LGBT is the representation of those who are part of the unequal minority of sexual and gender oppression. It's a bit more than that, but that's the easiest I can put it into one sentence. I'll just reiterate to make it clear: I am not telling you to stop in any way. I'm just asking you to recognize the rights boundary between you and I.

... What "rights boundary"?

Have you ever heard of the concept of "privilege"?

[Distruzio]

That'd be incorrect. Gender is a far cry from genitalia.

Liking androgyne non-binary males and women in the start or in-between of a transition from their biological male start points is feeling attracted to maleness in a degree

Transgender is no androgyny.

.... It is a specific kind of point somewhere between bisexual and heterosexual. If people want to identify with it (and they do, there is even the label T-lover where I live) for sure they are sexual minorities.

That's cute but those t-lovers are fetishists. The sexuality they express is a part of their sexual play - not their sexual or gender identity.

They are in most countries denied rights to marry them and to be protected from societal discrimination too.

Indeed. I've endured discrimination based upon my preference as well - from the trans community (who think, at first, that I am a fetishists), the homosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality) and the heterosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality). I'm not, however, homosexual. In the slightest. Masculine identity traits are a major turn off for me.

They may be shunned and attacked for offending God, manly honour or whatever.

Indeed. And it's a shame. Because God doesn't tend to be portrayed as taking offense with a binary gender identity - which the transexual community embraces.

[Distruzio]

I'll say it again. You support us. That's great, but please don't try to make allies part of LGBT. LGBT is the representation of those who are part of the unequal minority of sexual and gender oppression. It's a bit more than that, but that's the easiest I can put it into one sentence. I'll just reiterate to make it clear: I am not telling you to stop in any way. I'm just asking you to recognize the rights boundary between you and I.

... What "rights boundary"?

Privilege.

A white person support equality among the races is not black. No matter how much blackface they wear.

[Condunum]

No, you're not asking for them to be treated differently. You're creating schisms where you don't agree with an inclusion because you don't see how they're connected, even when I explain it to you.

Strange how for this entire argument I've been saying that trans people are different, and that they are connected, isn't it?

What do you want them included in, anyway? An acronym? Have your bloody acronym and be done with it.

In fact, If you're just going to pretend I'm arguing something completely different to what I am arguing then you can be done with it anyway.

If you're not good at being clear what you're arguing, that's your problem. In the mean time, na na na boo boo, I win you lose or something like that.

[The Rich Port]

... What "rights boundary"?

Have you ever heard of the concept of "privilege"?

Yes, but the context is unclear to me.

[The Steel Magnolia]

I dunno, I don't think the trans community really embraces the gender binary. Rather the reverse really.

[Condunum]

I'll say it again. You support us. That's great, but please don't try to make allies part of LGBT. LGBT is the representation of those who are part of the unequal minority of sexual and gender oppression. It's a bit more than that, but that's the easiest I can put it into one sentence. I'll just reiterate to make it clear: I am not telling you to stop in any way. I'm just asking you to recognize the rights boundary between you and I.

... What "rights boundary"?

You're fucking kidding me, right?

[Condunum]

I dunno, I don't think the trans community really embraces the gender binary. Rather the reverse really.

There's certainly a chunk that does embrace it, but I'd say most of us don't.

[Luveria]

No, it isn't being attracted to "maleness". You should stop trying to equate attraction to transgender women to attraction to feminine males. Transgender women aren't males at all. It's not helpful when you're implying it.

I know neurologically genderqueer females, transmen and cis guys who mysteriously had SRS are very different groups.

Regardless, the bisexual in me sees their androgynous bodies as pretty much the same sexy group.

If I was gay or straight women and had desires to do them, it would be actually sign of a "curiosity" that I call polysexuality, a slight kind of bisexuality.

I am not saying transwomen are male. I'm saying that before they look like female-born women, if they wake up a specific desire in those guys, they have a slight and specific sort of androphilia.

As people have pointed out, transwomen have nothing to do with androgyny anymore than ciswomen do. It's misinformation to suggest attraction to transgender women is anything less than heterosexuality. It's attraction to the female gender and not the sex.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

I'm not talking about they being attracted to people who are indeed neurologically and psychologically women.

I'm talking about they being attracted to androgynous phallus-possessing bodies.

That has nothing to do with attraction to transgender women, so I don't see why you're bringing it up.

Of course it has nothing to do with attraction to people like you and Magnolia. You are women full stop, OK, I get this, and won't ever question, and will always challenge those who do.

But liking people like you more for their personalities and the level of shit they had to endure does not equates any possible level of non-heterosexuality.

Liking male-born women more because they look different, especially before the transition is complete... Sounds like a slight bisexuality to me, and they can indeed claim a non-hetero identity if they want (the point I tried to make).

[Distruzio]

After a friend requesting I make this and my urge to make a thread, I've decided to make a transgender discussion thread. Though I'll put up some questions at the start, this is for any questions, advice, discussion, etc. that is related to being transgendered. I know it's pointless to ask for people to keep it polite, but keep in mind that unless you want to get eaten alive you probably shouldn't come in here just to be a douchebag towards trans* people.

Here are a few words you may not know but will probably see being used here (please TG me if you want me to add any other terms):
Trans/transgender/basically anything that sounds like that- Being trans* is when your gender isn't the same as the sex you were born with. Because, yes, your gender can differ from your sex.
Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.
Cis/cisgender- Someone whose gender matches the sex they were born with.

What do you think of trans* folk? Are you trans*?

I think that trans* people are just normal people. They deserve to be treated with respect and given rights, just like everyone else.
I've been questioning my gender for a while and have always felt a bit different when it came to gender, but I'm not sure I'll know for certain if I'm trans* or just confused for a while.

No point in asking "tolerant" people to be tolerant of other's religious and political beliefs.

With respect, when one's religious an political beliefs are the source of such social angst, those beliefs are intolerant themselves.

[Jormengand]

Strange how for this entire argument I've been saying that trans people are different, and that they are connected, isn't it?

What do you want them included in, anyway? An acronym? Have your bloody acronym and be done with it.

In fact, If you're just going to pretend I'm arguing something completely different to what I am arguing then you can be done with it anyway.

If you're not good at being clear what you're arguing, that's your problem. In the mean time, na na na boo boo, I win you lose or something like that.

Let me explain for the fifth time. Trans-ness is not the same thing as sexuality issues. Trans people being lumped together with LGB people in the fight for equal rights is fine - common cause and all. Being assumed to have the same issues is not fine.

I hope that's slightly more clear to you now, huh?

[The Rich Port]

... What "rights boundary"?

Privilege.

A white person support equality among the races is not black. No matter how much blackface they wear.

Yes, but they're both human, and both can be persecuted for the colour of their skin.

You think I tell my parents I find MtF's attractive?

[Distruzio]

I dunno, I don't think the trans community really embraces the gender binary. Rather the reverse really.

Isn't an inversion of a binary still a binary?

[Condunum]

After a friend requesting I make this and my urge to make a thread, I've decided to make a transgender discussion thread. Though I'll put up some questions at the start, this is for any questions, advice, discussion, etc. that is related to being transgendered. I know it's pointless to ask for people to keep it polite, but keep in mind that unless you want to get eaten alive you probably shouldn't come in here just to be a douchebag towards trans* people.

Here are a few words you may not know but will probably see being used here (please TG me if you want me to add any other terms):
Trans/transgender/basically anything that sounds like that- Being trans* is when your gender isn't the same as the sex you were born with. Because, yes, your gender can differ from your sex.
Genderqueer/queer- Someone whose gender is not female or male.
Cis/cisgender- Someone whose gender matches the sex they were born with.

What do you think of trans* folk? Are you trans*?

I think that trans* people are just normal people. They deserve to be treated with respect and given rights, just like everyone else.
I've been questioning my gender for a while and have always felt a bit different when it came to gender, but I'm not sure I'll know for certain if I'm trans* or just confused for a while.

No point in asking "tolerant" people to be tolerant of other's religious and political beliefs.

What does this even mean?

[Condunum]

If you're not good at being clear what you're arguing, that's your problem. In the mean time, na na na boo boo, I win you lose or something like that.

Let me explain for the fifth time. Trans-ness is not the same thing as sexuality issues. Trans people being lumped together with LGB people in the fight for equal rights is fine - common cause and all. Being assumed to have the same issues is not fine.

I hope that's slightly more clear to you now, huh?

Presenting this in a passive, friendly way would have done you a lot of good to stop this whole argument, you know.

Privilege.

A white person support equality among the races is not black. No matter how much blackface they wear.

Yes, but they're both human, and both can be persecuted for the colour of their skin.

You think I tell my parents I find MtF's attractive?

Oh boo. fucking. hoo. Your mommy and your daddy might be a bit peeved at you liking MtF transsexuals for all of a few hours before they rationalize, "Well, at least they have boobs and a vagina," and are done with. Meanwhile, I cannot use whatever bathroom I'd like, I cannot marry who I'd like, I cannot register with the government with an identity I'd like, and so on.

Again, no one is saying allies aren't important. If anything, allies are vital to the LGBT community. But you are not part of it. There is no reason to be upset with that.

[Distruzio]

Privilege.

A white person support equality among the races is not black. No matter how much blackface they wear.

Yes, but they're both human, and both can be persecuted for the colour of their skin.

You think I tell my parents I find MtF's attractive?

The identifier human is, in reality, completely arbitrary and tends to glaze over actual identities.

What does who you tell matter. I don't tell anyone until they ask. Why? Because it isn't a fetish. It isn't an orientation.

[Luveria]

Indeed. I've endured discrimination based upon my preference as well - from the trans community (who think, at first, that I am a fetishists), the homosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality) and the heterosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality). I'm not, however, homosexual. In the slightest. Masculine identity traits are a major turn off for me.

Transgender women too worry about being accused of fetishism if they have a preference for other transgender women. It's not only heterosexual men who get accused of such things.

Attraction to transgender females should be viewed as entirely normal instead of being made out to be some kind of fetish. That makes people feel uncomfortable about accepting their attraction to transgender people when there are people encouraging a belief that a legitimate preference is a fetish.

[Distruzio]

Indeed. I've endured discrimination based upon my preference as well - from the trans community (who think, at first, that I am a fetishists), the homosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality) and the heterosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality). I'm not, however, homosexual. In the slightest. Masculine identity traits are a major turn off for me.

Transgender women too worry about being accused of fetishism if they have a preference for other transgender women. It's not only heterosexual men who get accused of such things.

Attraction to transgender females should be viewed as entirely normal instead of being made out to be some kind of fetish. That makes people feel uncomfortable about accepting their attraction to transgender people when there are people encouraging a belief that a legitimate preference is a fetish.

Agreed.

[Hetalian Indie Rio de Janeiro]

Indeed. I've endured discrimination based upon my preference as well - from the trans community (who think, at first, that I am a fetishists), the homosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality) and the heterosexual community (who tend to view me in denial of my homosexuality). I'm not, however, homosexual. In the slightest. Masculine identity traits are a major turn off for me.

Transgender women too worry about being accused of fetishism if they have a preference for other transgender women. It's not only heterosexual men who get accused of such things.

Attraction to transgender females should be viewed as entirely normal instead of being made out to be some kind of fetish. That makes people feel uncomfortable about accepting their attraction to transgender people when there are people encouraging a belief that a legitimate preference is a fetish.

So not all T-lover guys are fetishists as Distruzio tried to imply?

Oh, gosh, it's so confusing.

[Jormengand]

Let me explain for the fifth time. Trans-ness is not the same thing as sexuality issues. Trans people being lumped together with LGB people in the fight for equal rights is fine - common cause and all. Being assumed to have the same issues is not fine.

I hope that's slightly more clear to you now, huh?

Presenting this in a passive, friendly way would have done you a lot of good to stop this whole argument, you know.

That's what I did the first time. When people called me a transphobe, misinterpreted my point to make it look bad, accused me of deliberate ignorance i.e. trolling,
and decided "And yes, Jormengand is ignorant," I got progressively less passive and friendly.

[Zottistan]

I dunno, I don't think the trans community really embraces the gender binary. Rather the reverse really.

Isn't an inversion of a binary still a binary?

The opposite of the concept of binary is non-binary.

[Distruzio]

Transgender women too worry about being accused of fetishism if they have a preference for other transgender women. It's not only heterosexual men who get accused of such things.

Attraction to transgender females should be viewed as entirely normal instead of being made out to be some kind of fetish. That makes people feel uncomfortable about accepting their attraction to transgender people when there are people encouraging a belief that a legitimate preference is a fetish.

So not all T-lover guys are fetishists as Distruzio tried to imply?

Oh, gosh, it's so confusing.

If the man identifies as a "t-lover" then he is a fetishist. That's what Luveria is saying. That's what I said.