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Does equality ever go too far?

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Lithosano
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Founded: Jan 06, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Lithosano » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:12 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
No, I don't think so. I'm more afraid of a trans* woman getting attacked or murdered because they're trans*.


There are several reasons I'll attack someone none involve that persons gender identity.


Which has exactly nothing to do with the fact that trans* people are far more likely to be victims of hate crimes. Regardless of whether or not you would assault someone does not change the fact that trans* people are more likely to be assaulted and/or killed.
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Aetanovum
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Postby Aetanovum » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:12 pm

No, it does not. Racism exists because we give it meaning, we say it's bad, skin color should matter just as much as having a arched nose or not. Gender too needs to be abolished. along with the rest, however people who are stupid because of choice shouldnt be equal, in this case they cant help it.

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South American Indochina
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Postby South American Indochina » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:12 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:
Why not?


Because a trans* woman in the boy's restroom is liable to get bullied, beaten up, or worse.

Seriously, can you imagine what would happen if a trans* woman who dresses in female clothes, carries a purse, and generally presents herself as female walks into a man's restroom? At best she will get some strange looks. At worst... see above.

No, because beating people thanks to them being transgender should be shunned. Otherwise, good point. Also, I said that I was torn on this issue and I am not sure about how it should be done. Both ways have bad points, with the current one being segregation sex-wise and the proposed one is segregation gender-wise. Why not institute completely gender and sex -neutral public toilets.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:13 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Liriena wrote:Not really.


Details?

It's not a lack of faith in men. It's the knowledge that transphobia is widespread among both cis men and women, that forcing trans people to go to a bathroom designated for a gender other than theirs humilliates them (as if they did not have to put up with enough shit already), and that it would also force them to come out as trans (whether they want to or not).
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Bubblekirby
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Postby Bubblekirby » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:13 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
No, I don't think so. I'm more afraid of a trans* woman getting attacked or murdered because they're trans*.


There are several reasons I'll attack someone none involve that persons gender identity.

That doesn't mean that everyone out there will not attack someone for being trans. There are some really shitty people out there just looking for an excuse to take their anger out on someone.
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Lithosano
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Postby Lithosano » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:13 pm

South American Indochina wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
Because a trans* woman in the boy's restroom is liable to get bullied, beaten up, or worse.

Seriously, can you imagine what would happen if a trans* woman who dresses in female clothes, carries a purse, and generally presents herself as female walks into a man's restroom? At best she will get some strange looks. At worst... see above.

No, because beating people thanks to them being transgender should be shunned. Otherwise, good point. Also, I said that I was torn on this issue and I am not sure about how it should be done. Both ways have bad points, with the current one being segregation sex-wise and the proposed one is segregation gender-wise. Why not institute completely gender and sex -neutral public toilets.


That seems to be the best option for everyone involved. Equality and all that.
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The Batorys
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Postby The Batorys » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:14 pm

I thought summer was over.

As to trans women using women's restroom facilities... yes, they're women, therefore if there are separate facilities, they should use the women's, not the men's. I don't see why this is hard for people.

Then again I don't see segregated bathrooms as truly necessary, either. Blame it on me going to UC Santa Cruz for college.
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Lost heros
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Postby Lost heros » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:15 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Lost heros wrote:Use your imagination. Just picture it. You and a bunch of other men are going to the when a girl, make-up, dress, the whole 9 yards. What do you think is going to happen?

So you're saying the only thing keeping men from raping women is a lack of opportunity.

I never said rape. I was mostly referring to violation of one's personal space.
Last edited by Lost Heros on Sun Mar 6, 2016 12:00, edited 173 times in total.


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The United Secularist Commonwealth
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Postby The United Secularist Commonwealth » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:16 pm

True equality is never bad, however equality in which one group is favored over another is not really equality but rather just reverse discrimination. Perhaps instead of giving favors to a particular racial minority because they historically are economically worse off, you could just offer aid to those who are economically poor off, thus eliminating the issue of racial preference in colleges and employment.

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:16 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Lithosano wrote:
No, I don't think so. I'm more afraid of a trans* woman getting attacked or murdered because they're trans*.


There are several reasons I'll attack someone none involve that persons gender identity.

We're not talking about you, Des-Bal, and if you expect me to take you as some sort of source for me to extrapolate a generalizing conclusion on society's treatment of trans people, you are going to be disappointed.
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I am:
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Political compass stuff:
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Farnhamia wrote:Whether or not you believe what you post is irrelevant.

Trolling is defined as posts that are made with the aim of angering people. (like 'ALL JEWS ARE [insert vile comment here]' for example). Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to trolling. Intent is incredibly important and will be judged by the moderators to the best of their abilities. Disagreements are expected and conducting yourself in a civil manner is ideal.


Then I defer to ns's definitions but that doesn't change the fact asking someone to defend what they believe is not trolling.
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Junisia
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Founded: Jul 13, 2013
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Postby Junisia » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:17 pm

To all the people saying transgender people need to use the bathroom based solely on what they had between their legs when they popped out of their mother:

http://www.elisarolle.com/romance/images/BuckAngel.jpg

How would you feel about that guy wandering into a women's bathroom or changing room to do his business? Because by your own logic, that's where he should be forced to go.

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South American Indochina
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Postby South American Indochina » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Lost heros wrote:
Des-Bal wrote:So you're saying the only thing keeping men from raping women is a lack of opportunity.

I never said rape. I was mostly referring to violation of one's personal space.

Really, the only private place in any public restroom are the toilet cubicles. Impeach urinals.
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Lost heros
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Postby Lost heros » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:21 pm

South American Indochina wrote:
Lost heros wrote:I never said rape. I was mostly referring to violation of one's personal space.

Really, the only private place in any public restroom are the toilet cubicles. Impeach urinals.

Yet most stalls have these huge holes that let people be able to crawl under them and let people look down on people using the toilet.

Impeach urinals. Legalize stalls. Peeking is theft.
Last edited by Lost Heros on Sun Mar 6, 2016 12:00, edited 173 times in total.


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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:22 pm

Lost heros wrote:
South American Indochina wrote:Really, the only private place in any public restroom are the toilet cubicles. Impeach urinals.

Yet most stalls have these huge holes that let people be able to crawl under them and let people look down on people using the toilet.

Impeach urinals. Legalize stalls. Peeking is theft.

Well, it's either this or Bryan Fischer. You have my vote! :P
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I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:24 pm

Lithosano wrote:
Which has exactly nothing to do with the fact that trans* people are far more likely to be victims of hate crimes. Regardless of whether or not you would assault someone does not change the fact that trans* people are more likely to be assaulted and/or killed.


Oddly enough we were talking about me and a group of other men.

You and a bunch of other men are going to the when a girl, make-up, dress, the whole 9 yards. What do you think is going to happen?
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:24 pm

Liriena wrote:We're not talking about you, Des-Bal, and if you expect me to take you as some sort of source for me to extrapolate a generalizing conclusion on society's treatment of trans people, you are going to be disappointed.

"Use your imagination. Just picture it. You and a bunch of other men are going to the when a girl, make-up, dress, the whole 9 yards. What do you think is going to happen?"

I was.
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The Union of the West
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Postby The Union of the West » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:25 pm

Leningrad Union wrote:Does equality ever go too far?

For example:
Special needs and handicapped kids at public schools possibly being a distraction.
Transgender students using their chosen gender's bathroom.
The fact that you can make fun of any race you want, but if you say a thing about black people, you are toast.

I personally believe that racism is unacceptable in all forms even against "crackas", but still wrong against blacks. I'm neutral about the transgender bathroom situation. When I was in middle school the special needs students did distract me, all they did was walk around the school all day and it bothered me during a test. That isn't the main reason I was frustrated, I thought that they needed some sort of education besides walking around the school.

What do you think?

In my opinion, equality goes to far when a group gets special treatment or when something is taken from someone in order to promote equality.
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Saint Kitten
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Postby Saint Kitten » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:26 pm

Leningrad Union wrote:Does equality ever go too far?

For example:
Special needs and handicapped kids at public schools possibly being a distraction.
Transgender students using their chosen gender's bathroom.
The fact that you can make fun of any race you want, but if you say a thing about black people, you are toast.

I personally believe that racism is unacceptable in all forms even against "crackas", but still wrong against blacks. I'm neutral about the transgender bathroom situation. When I was in middle school the special needs students did distract me, all they did was walk around the school all day and it bothered me during a test. That isn't the main reason I was frustrated, I thought that they needed some sort of education besides walking around the school.

What do you think?


Why do you keep bring up your personal problem with education? You should be more broad and talk about other equality things like equal pay that pretty much everyone can relate to.
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Anollasia
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Postby Anollasia » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:28 pm

What's the problem with the handicapped? It's not like they want to be handicapped.

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:28 pm

Saint Kitten wrote:
Why do you keep bring up your personal problem with education? You should be more broad and talk about other equality things like equal pay that pretty much everyone can relate to.


How dare he have interests in a specific area.
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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:29 pm

The Union of the West wrote:
Leningrad Union wrote:Does equality ever go too far?

For example:
Special needs and handicapped kids at public schools possibly being a distraction.
Transgender students using their chosen gender's bathroom.
The fact that you can make fun of any race you want, but if you say a thing about black people, you are toast.

I personally believe that racism is unacceptable in all forms even against "crackas", but still wrong against blacks. I'm neutral about the transgender bathroom situation. When I was in middle school the special needs students did distract me, all they did was walk around the school all day and it bothered me during a test. That isn't the main reason I was frustrated, I thought that they needed some sort of education besides walking around the school.

What do you think?

In my opinion, equality goes to far when a group gets special treatment or when something is taken from someone in order to promote equality.

Something that I have yet to see happen in the United States or any other nation in the Western hemisphere.
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I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

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The Union of the West
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Postby The Union of the West » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:30 pm

Liriena wrote:
The Union of the West wrote:In my opinion, equality goes to far when a group gets special treatment or when something is taken from someone in order to promote equality.

Something that I have yet to see happen in the United States or any other nation in the Western hemisphere.

I'm saying that if it were to happen, that would be taking it too far.
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South American Indochina
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Postby South American Indochina » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:31 pm

The Union of the West wrote:
Leningrad Union wrote:Does equality ever go too far?

For example:
Special needs and handicapped kids at public schools possibly being a distraction.
Transgender students using their chosen gender's bathroom.
The fact that you can make fun of any race you want, but if you say a thing about black people, you are toast.

I personally believe that racism is unacceptable in all forms even against "crackas", but still wrong against blacks. I'm neutral about the transgender bathroom situation. When I was in middle school the special needs students did distract me, all they did was walk around the school all day and it bothered me during a test. That isn't the main reason I was frustrated, I thought that they needed some sort of education besides walking around the school.

What do you think?

In my opinion, equality goes to far when a group gets special treatment or when something is taken from someone in order to promote equality.

Somehow people have a hard time understanding that setting people to unequal positions is not equal.
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Liriena
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Liriena wrote:We're not talking about you, Des-Bal, and if you expect me to take you as some sort of source for me to extrapolate a generalizing conclusion on society's treatment of trans people, you are going to be disappointed.

"Use your imagination. Just picture it. You and a bunch of other men are going to the when a girl, make-up, dress, the whole 9 yards. What do you think is going to happen?"

I was.

Well, then I hereby scold Lost Heros for including you in that question, since it seems to have utterly polluted the argument at hand.

Honestly, though...are you willing to address the issue of transphobia and the danger it poses to force trans people to come out by making it official policy to restrict them to bathrooms designated to their
biological sex from birth?
be gay do crime


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


⚧Copy and paste this in your sig
if you passed biology and know
gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧

I disown most of my previous posts

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