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"Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance

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Should the phrase "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance?

Yes
429
62%
No
260
38%
 
Total votes : 689

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Pravengria
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Postby Pravengria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:38 pm

Regnum Dominae wrote:"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

These words were added to the Pledge in 1954 due to Cold War-era political pressure to differentiate America from the "godless commies" of the Soviet Union. However, this addition is growing more and more controversial due to its conflict with the principle of separation of church and state as outlined in the Constitution. Supporters of the phrase's inclusion claim that because most Americans are Christian, the phrase is a simple reflection of the will of the people. However, opponents of the phrase's presence in the Pledge argue that it is violates the constitutional principles of church-state separation and freedom of religion, as well as that the US is not a Christian nation.

My opinion:
The addition of "Under God" to the Pledge was unacceptable even considering the circumstances of the Cold War, and now that the Cold War has long been over, it is especially egregious. America is not meant to be a Christian nation, and this is especially true nowadays considering that more and more Americans are not following the Christian religion. Based on Pew Research data from 2012, 27 percent of Americans are not followers of Christianity. When the many non-Christians of America have to recite the Pledge, they are being forced to acknowledge a religious deity that they do not believe to exist. Also, the phrase's presence in the Pledge contradicts freedom of religion and separation of church and state as outlined in the Constitution.

So, what is your opinion? Should the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance stay, or should it go?

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I don't believe it should. The nation wasn't founded for a religion, isn't meant to be any form of a theocratic state. As well, can be considered somewhat marginalizing on religious groups who feel that it is imposing on their own religion. ''Under the people'' sounds better to be frank, since the US is usually considered a democratic country, and the powers of the government originally were meant to be controlled and vested by the power of the people.

In my fullest opinion however, I don't think there should be a pledge regardless. Something about children having to say it in school makes me think of societal brainwashing in that regard. To pledge allegiance to something is very nationalistic, especially when you can make a cross reference to the allegiance going more towards the government or state. I'm Russian, I love my country, no way in hell I'd pledge my allegiance to it. The reason is rather simple, just because the state exist doesn't mean it makes the right decisions all the time, more so than not, they do so for their own agenda using ''public interest'' as a ploy.

I also find it hilarious that some people won't believe that before World War II, Americans used the Bellamy salute, which is the well known ''Nazi salute'' of today. Supporting an idea is alright, supporting the idea of the country is alright, which is can be defined as being patriotic. However, pledging absolute allegiance and subordination to a state especially at a young age seems very wrong.
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Kormanthor
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Postby Kormanthor » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:50 pm

America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:51 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

One of a million reasons.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:52 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

Well I'm sure that was one reason yeah.
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DesAnges
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Postby DesAnges » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:52 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

Coolio. What is the relevance?
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The Norgan Alliance
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Postby The Norgan Alliance » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:53 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

Well you're half right, the pilgrims left England for that reason but America itself wasn't founded because of that.
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Ramenasia
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Postby Ramenasia » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:54 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.


They founded America because they wanted religious freedom, among many things. Given this information, how do you think they would've felt about the insertion of "under God" in the pledge?
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Norstal
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Postby Norstal » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:54 pm

Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

So you force them to recognize God in the pledge.

Brilliant.
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Pravengria
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Postby Pravengria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:59 pm

DesAnges wrote:
Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.

Coolio. What is the relevance?


He likes taxation without representation clearly.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Ramenasia wrote:
Kormanthor wrote:America was founded so our ancestors wouldn't be forced to go to the Church of England because they didn't want the government telling them what church to go to.


They founded America because they wanted religious freedom, among many things. Given this information, how do you think they would've felt about the insertion of "under God" in the pledge?

Wait, the Pilgrims or the Founding Fathers?
The Pilgrims certainly didn't want 'religious freedom' for anyone but themselves.
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Ramenasia
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Postby Ramenasia » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:09 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Ramenasia wrote:
They founded America because they wanted religious freedom, among many things. Given this information, how do you think they would've felt about the insertion of "under God" in the pledge?

Wait, the Pilgrims or the Founding Fathers?
The Pilgrims certainly didn't want 'religious freedom' for anyone but themselves.


I thought he was talking about the Founding Fathers, or at least Enlightenment-era colonists. Calling the Puritans the nation's ancestors would be a gross oversimplification.
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Kormanthor
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Postby Kormanthor » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:14 pm

Pravengria wrote:
DesAnges wrote:Coolio. What is the relevance?


He likes taxation without representation clearly.


What does taxation have to do with separation of church and state?
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:34 pm

Kormanthor wrote:
Pravengria wrote:
He likes taxation without representation clearly.


What does taxation have to do with separation of church and state?

You tell us. You were the one who randomly brought up why you think America was founded.

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Pravengria
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Postby Pravengria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:50 pm

Kormanthor wrote:
Pravengria wrote:
He likes taxation without representation clearly.


What does taxation have to do with separation of church and state?


Relevant to those of us who pointed out to you that wanting religious freedom was the reason people founded America. There were quite a few other reasons, of which before the Revolutionary Way they outlined as a set of Grievances and sent it to the king. Taxation without Representation was one of those reasons. And as DesAnges pointed out, you were hardly relevant on the matter for the topic at hand.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:14 pm

Disserbia wrote:It should be optional, as in people should have the right not to say that part.

People do. That's not the issue. The pledge is set out as official in federal law. As in, Congress has made a law respecting an establishment of religion.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:15 pm

Ramenasia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Wait, the Pilgrims or the Founding Fathers?
The Pilgrims certainly didn't want 'religious freedom' for anyone but themselves.


I thought he was talking about the Founding Fathers, or at least Enlightenment-era colonists. Calling the Puritans the nation's ancestors would be a gross oversimplification.

Welcome to American History class.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:16 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Disserbia wrote:It should be optional, as in people should have the right not to say that part.

People do. That's not the issue. The pledge is set out as official in federal law. As in, Congress has made a law respecting an establishment of religion.


The tritheistic blood cultists who took over congressional leadership and influence have made the law. Any real patriot would have fought against its installment and would refuse to be misled by empty cover up propaganda against the soviets.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:19 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Ramenasia wrote:
I thought he was talking about the Founding Fathers, or at least Enlightenment-era colonists. Calling the Puritans the nation's ancestors would be a gross oversimplification.

Welcome to American propaganda machine masquerading as history.


Well I think my work here is done.
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The Norgan Alliance
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Postby The Norgan Alliance » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:22 pm

Benuty wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Welcome to American propaganda machine masquerading as history.


Well I think my work here is done.

Ever heard of the saying "history is written by the victors"? America doesn't lose often...
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:23 pm

Benuty wrote:
Ifreann wrote:People do. That's not the issue. The pledge is set out as official in federal law. As in, Congress has made a law respecting an establishment of religion.


The tritheistic blood cultists who took over congressional leadership and influence have made the law. Any real patriot would have fought against its installment and would refuse to be misled by empty cover up propaganda against the soviets.

You've stopped taking your pills again, haven't you?

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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:23 pm

The Norgan Alliance wrote:
Benuty wrote:
Well I think my work here is done.

Ever heard of the saying "history is written by the victors"? America doesn't lose often...

But when it does, it makes sure to let you know it was a draw.

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:24 pm

The Norgan Alliance wrote:
Benuty wrote:
Well I think my work here is done.

Ever heard of the saying "history is written by the victors"? America doesn't lose often...


Except Vietnam, which they would sooner forget how they manage to win every battle but lose the war.
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
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The Norgan Alliance
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Postby The Norgan Alliance » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:25 pm

Benuty wrote:
The Norgan Alliance wrote:Ever heard of the saying "history is written by the victors"? America doesn't lose often...


Except Vietnam, which they would sooner forget how they manage to win every battle but lose the war.

They didn't lose, they quit before they lost...or at least that's what the history books say.
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Divair
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Postby Divair » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:26 pm

The Norgan Alliance wrote:
Benuty wrote:
Except Vietnam, which they would sooner forget how they manage to win every battle but lose the war.

They didn't lose, they quit before they lost...or at least that's what the history books say.

Some American history books.


Let's be clear here.

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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:27 pm

The Norgan Alliance wrote:
Benuty wrote:
Except Vietnam, which they would sooner forget how they manage to win every battle but lose the war.

They didn't lose, they quit before they lost...or at least that's what the history books say.


They still lost (albeit by public opinion rather that military combat).
Last edited by Hashem 13.8 billion years ago
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