"Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance

[DesAnges]

As a laicist, of course I'll say yes. But since it's nobody's business but Americans...

Fuck that took me a while. I thought you were doing a racist East Asian accent.

[Hallistar]

As a laicist, of course I'll say yes. But since it's nobody's business but Americans...

Fuck that took me a while. I thought you were doing a racist East Asian accent.

Wouldn't the stereotypical accent be "waisis"?

[Genivaria]

I don't recite the pledge in the first place. As to my opinion: Yes, it should be taken out, because it violates the First Amendment.

Great argument.

[DesAnges]

Fuck that took me a while. I thought you were doing a racist East Asian accent.

Wouldn't the stereotypical accent be "waisis"?

Stereotyping racism. We're going down the rabbithole here people...

[Pensalum]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

[Zottistan]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

It holds meaning for others. I can say the Lord's Prayer from memory, I still outright refuse to do so when they make us pray at school.

Because evidently everybody is part of a monotheistic religion.

[Ifreann]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

You're being intentionally obtuse if you think it refers to anything other than Christianity.

[Dazchan]

@iffy 2, Since when did it say Christian God?

The fact that referring to your god as "God", with a capital G, no preceding article, as though it is a proper noun, is almost exclusive to the Abrahamic faiths, makes it pretty clear which god it refers to.

[Divair]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

Which still violates the 1st Amendment.

[Lost heros]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

So you'd rather have a authoritarian theocracy over secular democracy.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

If I went down the street and asked 10 random people, they would unanimously agree that the "Under God" portion refers to Jesus Christ. Regardless, it contradicts the freedom of religion part of the first amendment that says you can worship, or not worship, any deity. So basically you're saying, "Screw you Atheists/Hindus*/Pagans."

*Some people argue that all the Hindu Gods are actually one god. I'm indifferent on the matter.

[The Holy Roman Emperor]

Wouldn't the stereotypical accent be "waisis"?

Stereotyping racism. We're going down the rabbithole here people...

Wabbithore!

[Fulflood]

Remove it all, especially the "under God" bit.

Also, why to a flag?

[Ifreann]

Remove it all, especially the "under God" bit.

Also, why to a flag?

Because woo patriotism.

[Lost heros]

Remove it all, especially the "under God" bit.

Also, why to a flag?

Elaborate. I don't understand your question.

[Imperializt Russia]

Remove it all, especially the "under God" bit.

Also, why to a flag?

The flag is typically the embodiment of the nation and what it stands for.

The US flag, for example, contains the fifty states of the Union and has thirteen stripes signifying some struggle or other.
The flag of the United Kingdom is an amalgam of the flags of Northern Ireland, Scotland and England.

[Dyakovo]

@iffy 2, Since when did it say Christian God?

The fact that referring to your god as "God", with a capital G, no preceding article, as though it is a proper noun, is almost exclusive to the Abrahamic faiths, makes it pretty clear which god it refers to.

Not to mention the detail that all you have to do is look at the history of how it got added to see which deity it is meant to refer to...

Louis A. Bowman, an attorney from Illinois, was the first to initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge. The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea.[14][15] He spent his adult life in the Chicago area and was Chaplain of the Illinois Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. At a meeting on February 12, 1948,[14] Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God." He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. Though not all manuscript versions of the Gettysburg Address contain the words "under God", all the reporters' transcripts of the speech as delivered do, as perhaps Lincoln may have deviated from his prepared text and inserted the phrase when he said "that the nation shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom." Bowman repeated his revised version of the Pledge at other meetings.[14]
In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.[16] In New York City, on April 30, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend the text of their Pledge of Allegiance at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by addition of the words "under God" after the words "one nation." Over the next two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide. On August 21, 1952, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus at its annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that the change be made universal and copies of this resolution were sent to the President, the Vice President (as Presiding Officer of the Senate) and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The National Fraternal Congress meeting in Boston on September 24, 1952, adopted a similar resolution upon the recommendation of its president, Supreme Knight Luke E. Hart. Several State Fraternal Congresses acted likewise almost immediately thereafter. This campaign led to several official attempts to prompt Congress to adopt the Knights of Columbus’ policy for the entire nation. These attempts were eventually a success.[17]
In 1952, Susan Anald wrote a letter to President Truman suggesting the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Mr. Langmack was a Danish philosopher and educator who came to the United States in 1911. He was one of the originators of the Prayer Breakfast and a religious leader in Washington, D.C. President Truman met with him along with several others to discuss the inclusion of "under God" just before "with liberty and justice".[citation needed]
At the suggestion of a correspondent, Representative Louis C. Rabaut of Michigan sponsored a resolution to add the words "under God" to the Pledge in 1953.


Rev. Dr. George MacPherson Docherty (left) and President Eisenhower (second from left) on the morning of February 7, 1954, at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church
Prior to February 1954, no endeavor to get the Pledge officially amended succeeded. The final successful push came from George MacPherson Docherty. Some American presidents honored Lincoln's birthday by attending services at the church Lincoln attended, New York Avenue Presbyterian Church by sitting in Lincoln's pew on the Sunday nearest February 12. On February 7, 1954, with President Eisenhower sitting in Lincoln's pew, the church's pastor, George MacPherson Docherty, delivered a sermon based on the Gettysburg Address titled "A New Birth of Freedom." He argued that the nation's might lay not in arms but its spirit and higher purpose. He noted that the Pledge's sentiments could be those of any nation, that "there was something missing in the pledge, and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life." He cited Lincoln's words "under God" as defining words that set the United States apart from other nations.
President Eisenhower had been baptized a Presbyterian very recently, just a year before. He responded enthusiastically to Docherty in a conversation following the service. Eisenhower acted on his suggestion the next day and on February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. Congress passed the necessary legislation and Eisenhower signed the bill into law on Flag Day, June 14, 1954.[18] Eisenhower stated "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty.... In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource, in peace or in war."[19]
The phrase "under God" was incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance June 14, 1954, by a Joint Resolution of Congress amending §4 of the Flag Code enacted in 1942.[18]
On October 6, 1954 the National Executive Committee of the American Legion adopted a resolution, first approved by the Illinois American Legion Convention in August 1954, that formally recognized the Knights of Columbus for having initiated and brought forward the amendment to the Pledge of Allegiance.[17]

[14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19]

[Arcturus Novus]

I oppose the majority of nationalist behaviours, including the Pledge of Allegiance, so I'd be fin if we did away with the whole thing. But, seeing as that won't happen anytime soon, I say that "under god" should be removed for the sake of religious freedom.

[Conservative Idealism]

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

These words were added to the Pledge in 1954 due to Cold War-era political pressure to differentiate America from the "godless commies" of the Soviet Union. However, this addition is growing more and more controversial due to its conflict with the principle of separation of church and state as outlined in the Constitution. Supporters of the phrase's inclusion claim that because most Americans are Christian, the phrase is a simple reflection of the will of the people. However, opponents of the phrase's presence in the Pledge argue that it is violates the constitutional principles of church-state separation and freedom of religion, as well as that the US is not a Christian nation.

My opinion:
The addition of "Under God" to the Pledge was unacceptable even considering the circumstances of the Cold War, and now that the Cold War has long been over, it is especially egregious. America is not meant to be a Christian nation, and this is especially true nowadays considering that more and more Americans are not following the Christian religion. Based on Pew Research data from 2012, 27 percent of Americans are not followers of Christianity. When the many non-Christians of America have to recite the Pledge, they are being forced to acknowledge a religious deity that they do not believe to exist. Also, the phrase's presence in the Pledge contradicts freedom of religion and separation of church and state as outlined in the Constitution.

So, what is your opinion? Should the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance stay, or should it go?

mod permission to repost this thread granted here

Personally, I take more offense to the first part. Allegiance is the obligation of loyalty, and a pledge is a promise. I don't think selling one's soul to the State is representative of American culture. It is only that "under God" clause that reminds people that they have Someone Higher to answer to - otherwise it makes the government of the U.S. sound all-powerful. If anything, the whole pledge should go.

[AiliailiA]

Pretty baller little kid.

I know. I'm glad that America is going to be handed down to a smarter generation.
No offense

Yeah, no offense. Such a weak point can't really cause offense. So add a Wink smilie to imply you meant something more.

And another thing. You should get a proper keyboard. The human keyboard is made for a finger-span of least 15 centimetres. Domesticated cats have a finger-span of about 2 centimetres. Using a human keyboard instead of a proper cat keyboard, will cause you debilitating shoulder injury, so contact your cat poster union and demand better working conditions. Cat keyboards, or no more clackety-clack!

[Slafstopia]

Yes. Because secularism.

[Divair]

fyi
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/04/us/massac ... ?hpt=us_c2

[Fulflood]

Remove it all, especially the "under God" bit.

Also, why to a flag?

The flag is typically the embodiment of the nation and what it stands for.

The US flag, for example, contains the fifty states of the Union and has thirteen stripes signifying some struggle or other.
The flag of the United Kingdom is an amalgam of the flags of Northern Ireland, Scotland and England.

I understand why the flag has its importance, but not why the flag is used in preference to saying it directly to the country; what's the point when it makes perfect sense if reference to the flag is removed from the pledge. It's kind of like sitting in someone's house and leaving a message on their answerphone instead of talking straight to them. And it's not like somehow the flag is more receptive to the pledge.

[Norstal]

fyi
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/04/us/massac ... ?hpt=us_c2

I'd rather it be reviewed by a federal judge, but we all can't have our cake and eat it too.

[Imperializt Russia]

The flag is typically the embodiment of the nation and what it stands for.

The US flag, for example, contains the fifty states of the Union and has thirteen stripes signifying some struggle or other.
The flag of the United Kingdom is an amalgam of the flags of Northern Ireland, Scotland and England.

I understand why the flag has its importance, but not why the flag is used in preference to saying it directly to the country; what's the point when it makes perfect sense if reference to the flag is removed from the pledge. It's kind of like sitting in someone's house and leaving a message on their answerphone instead of talking straight to them. And it's not like somehow the flag is more receptive to the pledge.

The government can fail. High office can fail. The state can fail. But the country, and its embodiment, the flag, stand on, infallible.

[Pensalum]

I'm not so much bothered by the "under God" part, if anything it's the "liberty and justice for all". I still say the pledge, but I don't think it holds much meaning with anyone, just a thing to say from memory.

So you'd rather have a authoritarian theocracy over secular democracy.

I don't understand what you're saying. What I mean is that I don't think everyone has liberty and justice, and saying that is a blatant lie. The Under God part still violates the first amendment, but saying liberty and justice under god still ignores everyone who is given injustice.

By the way, God doesn't just refer to christianity, it's for any religion that has a single deity.

If I went down the street and asked 10 random people, they would unanimously agree that the "Under God" portion refers to Jesus Christ. Regardless, it contradicts the freedom of religion part of the first amendment that says you can worship, or not worship, any deity. So basically you're saying, "Screw you Atheists/Hindus*/Pagans."

*Some people argue that all the Hindu Gods are actually one god. I'm indifferent on the matter.

Very true, but at least the pledge doesn't blatantly say "Under Jesus".

Edit: sorry about the awkward formatting.