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Ahh faith healing.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:03 am

Pharthan wrote:So many religion haters. I thought we Christians were supposed to be the intolerant ones. Looks like my religion is out of a job, now. Looks like we can go back to inventing important things. Like hospitals. (Irony?) (Yes, I understand there were infirmaries before Christians came along, but not full-blown hospitals.)

While I fully support modern medicine, I would like to point out there is merit in the ideals of "faith healing." Not like anything that get's publicized these days; it has more to deal with the human body itself and emotion; the happier you are, the more likely you are to be healthy or recover. For the same reason, those with pets and under the regular care of loved ones are more likely to recover. Having a faith gives a peace of mind (therefore, less stress which is taxing on the body as it is and can cause a number of issues on it's own), security, and generally has the body in a healthier, happier state. It's not going to cure cancer, but has shown to help a number of mental and physical medical issues. It also sets into place a number of routes for the human mind to take (i.e. a goal to strive for, something to live for, purpose in general). The human mind is an incredibly powerful thing (See: Placebo Effect) and with the proper tools and thought can do wonders.

It also generally helps, as history has proven, those who are religious survive major plagues for a multitude of reasons (chiefly that those of a religion are more likely to support each other outside of a medical field and provide care), which is actually why Christianity is so large today; plagues swept ancient Rome, and Christians survived more frequently than pagans due to the Christians actually following Christian practices of being selfless, kind, et cetera.

I also believe God can heal, as I am a Christian, but in the modern era I follow a "God helps those who help themselves," ideal and believe that medicine should not be forsworn in place of testing God (which generally is a stupid idea, and on a religious note has Biblical backing as being, again, a stupid idea.)

There certainly were hospitals before Christianity. Calling them "infirmaries" doesn't give you the right to claim hospitals as yours.

Mental well-being is certainly a great aid to recovering from illness, no one disputes that. How one achieves it is neither here nor there and there are any number of ways to do so that do not involve the supernatural (meditation, for one).

I will thank you for sources for Christians surviving plagues more often than pagans in ancient times.
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Postby Britannic Realms » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:07 am

Arglorand wrote:
Britannic Realms wrote:
The topic is about faith healing.

So talk about faith healing, not about silly people making silly generalizations.


The first part of it was talking about faith healing.
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Postby Utceforp » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:06 am

Arglorand wrote:
Utceforp wrote:Example?

Say a deeply cherished loved one dies. What would be the rational course of action for you is a matter of long, long debate, but I have little doubt that many people, perhaps even most, would react in seemingly irrational ways - crying, fits of depression, just general sadness. One might argue the rational course of action would be not to think about it and to move on, since you can't help the person's death anyway - but you can't really argue that it's fair to judge the person for mourning their loved one's death. Whether it's rational or not, it doesn't really matter.

My grandmother died recently. I cried, I was sad, it's fine when it's something like that. It's when your decision affects other people significantly (e.g. denying your children medicine), that's when you need to be rational.
Arglorand wrote:People aren't rational actors. No matter how much Austrian economics want us to be.

I'm not saying people are. I'm saying people should be, at least when making important decisions.
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Postby Arglorand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:08 am

Utceforp wrote:
Arglorand wrote:Say a deeply cherished loved one dies. What would be the rational course of action for you is a matter of long, long debate, but I have little doubt that many people, perhaps even most, would react in seemingly irrational ways - crying, fits of depression, just general sadness. One might argue the rational course of action would be not to think about it and to move on, since you can't help the person's death anyway - but you can't really argue that it's fair to judge the person for mourning their loved one's death. Whether it's rational or not, it doesn't really matter.

My grandmother died recently. I cried, I was sad, it's fine when it's something like that. It's when your decision affects other people significantly (e.g. denying your children medicine), that's when you need to be rational.
Arglorand wrote:People aren't rational actors. No matter how much Austrian economics want us to be.

I'm not saying people are. I'm saying people should be, at least when making important decisions.

I agree. I was merely pointing out that there were cases where rationality was not the wisest option to take. These are without any exception that I can think of personal cases that do not affect others.
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Postby South American Indochina » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:12 am

Not really here in Finland. Here healthcare is based on science, thank you very much. Although the members of our conservative christian organizations (Finnish Lutheran Mission and Finnish Lutheran Evangelical Association) definitely promote it.
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Postby Indira » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:18 am

God Kefka wrote:Sometimes faith healing can work better than medicine so long as its real and divinely backed...

I have a great grandfather who had cancer and couldn't be cured by medicines. He went to a church, prayed, saw a faith healer and after several weeks he was cured by a miracle.

Science is not the end all be all...


Yes it is.

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Postby God Kefka » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:20 am

Indira wrote:
God Kefka wrote:Sometimes faith healing can work better than medicine so long as its real and divinely backed...

I have a great grandfather who had cancer and couldn't be cured by medicines. He went to a church, prayed, saw a faith healer and after several weeks he was cured by a miracle.

Science is not the end all be all...


Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?
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Postby Solaray » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:22 am

Yes Im Biop wrote:
Solaray wrote:Spiritual well-being, a sense of confidence and tranquility, general happiness, fellowship, a sense of purpose. The list goes on.


1: I Don't really care about that
2:I'm a confident person as a rule
3: Tranquil? That's boring
4: I am Happy as long as I have ma buddy or a good book
5:Read point 4
6:I'm going on to be a weapons designer and and accountant.
And I don't believe in any Gods. Much less stress full

Your point? I wasn't saying religion was the sole source of those things. Just as it's not the sole source of morality or even, arguably, spirituality. I believe there is spiritual atheism, if I recall correctly.
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Postby Benuty » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:24 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?


I think you are confusing an exorcism for prayer approach medicinal practices.
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Arglorand
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Postby Arglorand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:24 am

God Kefka wrote:Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?

I don't think we have to explain things that don't exist.
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Postby Stern des Meeres » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:24 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?

I don't believe in miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demons, or god. So I don't have to explain them.

Do you have sources about instances that did work?
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Postby The Scientific States » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:25 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?


They haven't. You have yet to give us any sources for your point, and when we ask for one, you simply go on a rant.
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:25 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?

Simple. They don't exist/weren't what you claim they are, and the faith healings didn't happen.

You see, if faith healing worked, it would actually give results distinguishable from the placebo effect.
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:25 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?

We don't have to explain things that are myth.
And faith healing doesn't work, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
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Indira
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Postby Indira » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:28 am

God Kefka wrote:
Indira wrote:
Yes it is.


Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?


1: Prove any of those things ACTUALLY HAPPENED

2: Explain how you know it ACTUALLY WAS faith healing. And crucially, explain why it frequently FAILS, especially in the case of innocents such as newborn children.

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God Kefka
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Postby God Kefka » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:29 am

Genivaria wrote:
God Kefka wrote:
Then how do you explain miracles, ghosts, witchcraft, demon possessions and other things?

How do you explain the instances of faith healing that HAVE worked?

We don't have to explain things that are myth.
And faith healing doesn't work, unless you have evidence to the contrary.


I have seen it work plenty of times...

Maybe you just don't see it because you don't believe in God. Just saying...

It's also incredibly arrogant to assume that supernatural things don't exist. I've had plenty of experiences with many of those things...
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:30 am

God Kefka wrote:
Genivaria wrote:We don't have to explain things that are myth.
And faith healing doesn't work, unless you have evidence to the contrary.


I have seen it work plenty of times...

Maybe you just don't see it because you don't believe in God. Just saying...

It's also incredibly arrogant to assume that supernatural things don't exist. I've had plenty of experiences with many of those things...

Anecdotal accounts are worthless, do you have evidence or not?
And if you see things BECAUSE you believe them then you need help.
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Postby Stern des Meeres » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:31 am

God Kefka wrote:
Genivaria wrote:We don't have to explain things that are myth.
And faith healing doesn't work, unless you have evidence to the contrary.


I have seen it work plenty of times...

Maybe you just don't see it because you don't believe in God. Just saying...

It's also incredibly arrogant to assume that supernatural things don't exist. I've had plenty of experiences with many of those things...

Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.
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Postby Benuty » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:31 am

God Kefka wrote:
Genivaria wrote:We don't have to explain things that are myth.
And faith healing doesn't work, unless you have evidence to the contrary.


I have seen it work plenty of times...

Maybe you just don't see it because you don't believe in God. Just saying...

It's also incredibly arrogant to assume that supernatural things don't exist. I've had plenty of experiences with many of those things...


Assumation of arrogance must be backed by the arrogance of ones assumations.
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God Kefka
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Postby God Kefka » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:32 am

Stern des Meeres wrote:
God Kefka wrote:
I have seen it work plenty of times...

Maybe you just don't see it because you don't believe in God. Just saying...

It's also incredibly arrogant to assume that supernatural things don't exist. I've had plenty of experiences with many of those things...

Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.


They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science
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Postby Stern des Meeres » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:34 am

God Kefka wrote:
Stern des Meeres wrote:Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.


They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science

Perhaps you misunderstand. In a logical debate, such as this one, personal anecdotes mean close to nothing.
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Postby Arglorand » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:34 am

God Kefka wrote:
Stern des Meeres wrote:Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.


They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science

We find it difficult to be open-minded when none of us have actually SEEN them.

Next time you see your great supernatural, make a video.
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Postby Blasveck » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:34 am

God Kefka wrote:
Stern des Meeres wrote:Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.


They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science


Okay guys.

We're done here.
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Postby Indira » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:35 am

God Kefka wrote:
Stern des Meeres wrote:Personal anecdotes don't stand as proof. Sources, dear sir, sources.


They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science


They only stand as proof if they actually fit the definition. Most likely, you are bending the facts to suit your ideas, instead of the other way round. The real world doesn't work like that. Provide GENUINE proof or acknowledge that you have no proof

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Postby Benuty » Mon Sep 02, 2013 10:36 am

Blasveck wrote:
God Kefka wrote:
They do stand as proof. If you saw them you would believe too... just need to be open-minded about how the world works.

Supernatural things > science


Okay guys.

We're done here.


Hmm
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