Ahh faith healing.

[Utceforp]

I'm not saying all religious people cause evil things to happen, or that all evil things are caused by religious people. I'm saying that a significant amount of the world's problems are caused by people with religious motivation, and that the evil caused by religion far, far outweighs the small benefits. Also, it makes sense to not believe in something that has no proof, whether or not it is inherently good or not.

Religion alone causes none of those problems. The problems are caused by people that misinterpret or take to the extreme, their religions. Jesus never said gays were evil. Mohammed never said terrorism was the way to go.

Yes, but if you remove the religion you remove the problem. For example, there's the topic of the thread: Faith Healing. Would parents be denying their children modern medicine if they weren't Christian?

[Yorkopolis]

:palm:

Some times I wonder about the people of the US. Measles is starting to make a resurgence after it has was basically eradicated for years.

Latest example was a mega church in Texas

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... k/2693945/

At least this church learned and provides for free vaccination clinics.

Any other countries having such problems?

The Netherlands is having such problems in our own Bible Belt, which seriously keeps pissing me off.

[Jamessonia]

But the thing is that Faith Healing isn't the best source of treatment. Sure, it works rarely, but using faith alone as a source of healing isn't a great idea...

Why not?

If you are meant to be saved you will be saved... if not you will join the Lord's Kingdom.

Using medicine wouldn't have made a difference if it was destined that you wouldn't survive...

Yes, medicine would make a difference. The vaccination helps your immune system to fight off bacteria, which gives you a better chance of survival.

[Lost Memories]

That's why the whole human race died out before the advent of medicine.

Okay, point, but I mean...even early peoples had some idea of herbs and plants that could help make you feel better.
This is literally just lying down and praying and expecting sheer faith to win out.

No, they just died, and the strong/lucky ones lived on.

[Jamessonia]

Okay, point, but I mean...even early peoples had some idea of herbs and plants that could help make you feel better.
This is literally just lying down and praying and expecting sheer faith to win out.

No, they just died, and the strong/lucky ones lived on.

That's how it is with faith healing, except the lucky ones are a smaller number than vaccinated people.

[Chinese Regions]

SAVE THE BADGERS!

OH NO A CULL!

FLASH!

[Sdaeriji]

This is why the world can't eradicate polio.

[Strykla]

The link said nothing about faith healing. Their concerns were about autism - unfounded concerns, yes, but it was not a question of faith to the infected.

It's easy to demonize(haha) other people, but pretty generally everybody has a rational reason for doing what they do. Those stupid idiots that always get reported are a tiny minority, despite what the press might have you think.

[Utceforp]

The link said nothing about faith healing. Their concerns were about autism - unfounded concerns, yes, but it was not a question of faith to the infected.

It's easy to demonize(haha) other people, but pretty generally everybody has a rational reason for doing what they do. Those stupid idiots that always get reported are a tiny minority, despite what the press might have you think.

Read every post trying to "prove" the existence of God in this thread and you may change your mind. Everyone should have a rational reason for doing what they do, but some people don't.

[Arglorand]

Everyone should have a rational reason for doing what they do, but some people don't.

I disagree.

Don't get me wrong. Faith healing is ridiculous with no exceptions, because it is literally dooming your loved ones to horrible illnesses, deaths, etcetera, on the even more ridiculous premise that a god would save you if he wanted to.

However, you cannot strictly, without exceptions, say that people should only do actions that make absolute rational sense. There are times, especially times dealing with emotion and feelings, where rational logic is not only largely detrimental but, in some cases, largely just plain useless.

[Utceforp]

Everyone should have a rational reason for doing what they do, but some people don't.

I disagree.

Don't get me wrong. Faith healing is ridiculous with no exceptions, because it is literally dooming your loved ones to horrible illnesses, deaths, etcetera, on the even more ridiculous premise that a god would save you if he wanted to.

However, you cannot strictly, without exceptions, say that people should only do actions that make absolute rational sense. There are times, especially times dealing with emotion and feelings, where rational logic is not only largely detrimental but, in some cases, largely just plain useless.

Example?

[Strykla]

Religion alone causes none of those problems. The problems are caused by people that misinterpret or take to the extreme, their religions. Jesus never said gays were evil. Mohammed never said terrorism was the way to go.

Yes, but if you remove the religion you remove the problem. For example, there's the topic of the thread: Faith Healing. Would parents be denying their children modern medicine if they weren't Christian?

Except you assume that many people's reasons for doing what they do are purely religious. The Crusades were intended to drive out the Muslims, but Urban II had more pragmatic reasons for doing what he did.

People aren't robots. And we're someone to ban religion, the religious probably wouldn't abide by that law - they would only hate the other people more.

[Arglorand]

I disagree.

Don't get me wrong. Faith healing is ridiculous with no exceptions, because it is literally dooming your loved ones to horrible illnesses, deaths, etcetera, on the even more ridiculous premise that a god would save you if he wanted to.

However, you cannot strictly, without exceptions, say that people should only do actions that make absolute rational sense. There are times, especially times dealing with emotion and feelings, where rational logic is not only largely detrimental but, in some cases, largely just plain useless.

Example?

Say a deeply cherished loved one dies. What would be the rational course of action for you is a matter of long, long debate, but I have little doubt that many people, perhaps even most, would react in seemingly irrational ways - crying, fits of depression, just general sadness. One might argue the rational course of action would be not to think about it and to move on, since you can't help the person's death anyway - but you can't really argue that it's fair to judge the person for mourning their loved one's death. Whether it's rational or not, it doesn't really matter.

People aren't rational actors. No matter how much Austrian economics want us to be.

[Purpelia]

People aren't robots. And we're someone to ban religion, the religious probably wouldn't abide by that law - they would only hate the other people more.

So? By that logic we should not ban anything ever. After all, if we ban rape and murder all the murdering rapists won't abide by our laws and will only hate the rest of us more.

[Ashmoria]

:palm:

Some times I wonder about the people of the US. Measles is starting to make a resurgence after it has was basically eradicated for years.

Latest example was a mega church in Texas

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... k/2693945/

At least this church learned and provides for free vaccination clinics.

Any other countries having such problems?

its such a shame that the minister couldn't faith heal the kids who ended up with measles.

[Ifreann]

Religion alone causes none of those problems. The problems are caused by people that misinterpret or take to the extreme, their religions. Jesus never said gays were evil. Mohammed never said terrorism was the way to go.

Yes, but if you remove the religion you remove the problem. For example, there's the topic of the thread: Faith Healing. Would parents be denying their children modern medicine if they weren't Christian?

Yes, quite possibly.

[Purpelia]

Yes, but if you remove the religion you remove the problem. For example, there's the topic of the thread: Faith Healing. Would parents be denying their children modern medicine if they weren't Christian?

Yes, quite possibly.

But they would not have an excuse to hide behind.

[Katganistan]

Yes, but if you remove the religion you remove the problem. For example, there's the topic of the thread: Faith Healing. Would parents be denying their children modern medicine if they weren't Christian?

Yes, quite possibly.

Probably. There are the vaccinations cause autism folks, and the "I am not vaccinating my child with Gardasil because then they'll have sex!" folks too.

And hey: mt family is religious, we're Christian, and we all go get vaccinated for flu etc. as a matter of course.

It's stupidity, not religion, that causes people to do stupid shit.

[Arglorand]

Yes, quite possibly.

But they would not have an excuse to hide behind.

They would not have this excuse.

They'd think of other ones, quite possibly.

[Pharthan]

So many religion haters. I thought we Christians were supposed to be the intolerant ones. Looks like my religion is out of a job, now. Looks like we can go back to inventing important things. Like hospitals. (Irony?) (Yes, I understand there were infirmaries before Christians came along, but not full-blown hospitals.)

While I fully support modern medicine, I would like to point out there is merit in the ideals of "faith healing." Not like anything that get's publicized these days; it has more to deal with the human body itself and emotion; the happier you are, the more likely you are to be healthy or recover. For the same reason, those with pets and under the regular care of loved ones are more likely to recover. Having a faith gives a peace of mind (therefore, less stress which is taxing on the body as it is and can cause a number of issues on it's own), security, and generally has the body in a healthier, happier state. It's not going to cure cancer, but has shown to help a number of mental and physical medical issues. It also sets into place a number of routes for the human mind to take (i.e. a goal to strive for, something to live for, purpose in general). The human mind is an incredibly powerful thing (See: Placebo Effect) and with the proper tools and thought can do wonders.

It also generally helps, as history has proven, those who are religious survive major plagues for a multitude of reasons (chiefly that those of a religion are more likely to support each other outside of a medical field and provide care), which is actually why Christianity is so large today; plagues swept ancient Rome, and Christians survived more frequently than pagans due to the Christians actually following Christian practices of being selfless, kind, et cetera.

I also believe God can heal, as I am a Christian, but in the modern era I follow a "God helps those who help themselves," ideal and believe that medicine should not be forsworn in place of testing God (which generally is a stupid idea, and on a religious note has Biblical backing as being, again, a stupid idea.)

[Purpelia]

But they would not have an excuse to hide behind.

They would not have this excuse.

They'd think of other ones, quite possibly.

It's much easier for a government to justify to the rest of its population forcing people into vaccination and medicine if their excuse is based on silly conspiracy theories than if it is based on something as fundamental to modern society as freedom of religion.

[Arglorand]

They would not have this excuse.

They'd think of other ones, quite possibly.

It's much easier for a government to force people into vaccination and medicine if their excuse is based on silly conspiracy theories than if it is based on something as fundamental to modern society as freedom of religion.

Except mandating that all people must vaccinate does not exactly contradict freedom of religion.

It contradicts freedom of religion about as much as banning witch trials does.

[Caecuser]

They would not have this excuse.

They'd think of other ones, quite possibly.

It's much easier for a government to justify to the rest of its population forcing people into vaccination and medicine if their excuse is based on silly conspiracy theories than if it is based on something as fundamental to modern society as freedom of religion.

Freedom of Religion isn't exactly that fundamental.

[Ifreann]

Yes, quite possibly.

But they would not have an excuse to hide behind.

Of course they would. People don't need Christianity to reject modern medicine.

---

Yes, quite possibly.

Probably. There are the vaccinations cause autism folks, and the "I am not vaccinating my child with Gardasil because then they'll have sex!" folks too.

The autism thing is exactly what I was thinking about.

[Yes Im Biop]

What's the point in your argument? What could people possibly have to gain by preferring faith over logic and going "yes, there is a god." Why believe in God?

Spiritual well-being, a sense of confidence and tranquility, general happiness, fellowship, a sense of purpose. The list goes on.

1: I Don't really care about that
2:I'm a confident person as a rule
3: Tranquil? That's boring
4: I am Happy as long as I have ma buddy or a good book
5:Read point 4
6:I'm going on to be a weapons designer and and accountant.
And I don't believe in any Gods. Much less stress full