Atheist Discussion Thread

[Lost heros]

Did God really expect them to pass?

Yes.

Adam and Eve were pretty gullible and stupid before eating the fruit of knowledge.

It was actually a lot less simple, you see Adam had told Eve not to touch the tree while God only told Adam not to eat from the tree, the snake pushed Eve into the tree and then Eve reasoned 'if Adam was wrong about this....'

So they couldn't comprehend separate things having separate punishments.

Hell, they didn't know what bad was.

They knew not to eat the fruit.

How could they know? They were told not to eat the fruit, but they didn't know what a consequence was that would happen if they did.

God said "Don't eat the fruit" and they never bothered questioning him because they didn't know why they should or how they could.

Rather why would Adam question God... his creator? I mean if someone gave you the best thing in the world and continued to do so, then asked you once a day to put a penny in a charity box... why would you question him? Adam had enough reason to believe what God was doing was correct.

Adam's like an animal. Adam just wanders around the garden eating the fruit of a bunch of trees, but not eating the fruit of one tree because the big man says "Don't do it of you'll die." And like any other animal Adam is afraid of death, and like any other animal, Adam doesn't do anything to find out why he would die if he ate that fruit.

The snake convinces Adam and Eve to eat the apple, for their own good.

Adam never met the snake.

Fine, the snake convinces Eve to take some fruit to Adam where they will both eat it, for their own good.

Because of the snake, Adam and Eve are smart, they can learn, and they can question.

They could do all that before hand.

It doesn't seem like it.

So did God honestly not want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit?

God doesn't ask us to not do things, and really want us to do those things he asked us not to do... why would he then not tell us to do those things?

Perhaps, so we can learn to think for ourselves. If God went up to Adam and said, "Here, eat this fruit." Afterwards Adam would go, "Cool thanks God, now what do you want me to do?" In that scenario man doesn't learn anything.

[Menassa]

Yes.


It was actually a lot less simple, you see Adam had told Eve not to touch the tree while God only told Adam not to eat from the tree, the snake pushed Eve into the tree and then Eve reasoned 'if Adam was wrong about this....'

So they couldn't comprehend separate things having separate punishments.

No, Eve was never told not to eat from the Tree.

How could they know? They were told not to eat the fruit, but they didn't know what a consequence was that would happen if they did.

Yes they were.
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

Adam's like an animal. Adam just wanders around the garden eating the fruit of a bunch of trees, but not eating the fruit of one tree because the big man says "Don't do it of you'll die." And like any other animal Adam is afraid of death, and like any other animal, Adam doesn't do anything to find out why he would die if he ate that fruit.

Adam is not like an animal at all, you see God told Adam to guard or 'keep' the garden i.e. take care of it... and Adam listened to his creator who he knew better than you or I.

Adam never met the snake.

Fine, the snake convinces Eve to take some fruit to Adam where they will both eat it, for their own good.

They could do all that before hand.

It doesn't seem like it.

Perhaps, so we can learn to think for ourselves. If God went up to Adam and said, "Here, eat this fruit." Afterwards Adam would go, "Cool thanks God, now what do you want me to do?" In that scenario man doesn't learn anything.

In the first scenerio he didn't learn anything either... how would God wanting us to eat from the fruit, telling us we'll die if we do and then punishing us?

Here Jimmy, don't eat this cookie, if you do eat this cookie you will go to your room...
*jimmy eats the cookie*
How dare you jimmy? Go to your room right now!
*a few hours later*
Jimmy I'm really glad you ate that cookie.

Not very logically, or scripturally sound.

[Benuty]

Well to be fair you'd probably look like a hairless ant to said being thus not worthy of interest.

All ants are hairless ants. :V

The Rasberry crazy ants would disagree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_crazy_ants

[Dyakovo]

All the cool people are in hell.

Unlikely, since there is no hell.

[Benuty]

All the cool people are in hell./quote]
Unlikely, since there is no hell.

What do you expect from a mistranslation of Jewish text?

[Dyakovo]

I have an Atheist question. I know Atheists don't believe in any deity, but do you believe in anything spiritual? Like I mean even something as simple as ghosts.

That depends on the individual. I personally do not.

[Lost heros]

So they couldn't comprehend separate things having separate punishments.

No, Eve was never told not to eat from the Tree.

So?

How could they know? They were told not to eat the fruit, but they didn't know what a consequence was that would happen if they did.

Yes they were.
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

They feared death. Like an animal.

Adam's like an animal. Adam just wanders around the garden eating the fruit of a bunch of trees, but not eating the fruit of one tree because the big man says "Don't do it of you'll die." And like any other animal Adam is afraid of death, and like any other animal, Adam doesn't do anything to find out why he would die if he ate that fruit.

Adam is not like an animal at all, you see God told Adam to guard or 'keep' the garden i.e. take care of it... and Adam listened to his creator who he knew better than you or I.

He's like a trained dog. Master told him to do something, so he did it. Master told him not to do it, so he didn't do it. Someone else told him to do it, so he did it. He doesn't think on his own.

Adam never met the snake.

Fine, the snake convinces Eve to take some fruit to Adam where they will both eat it, for their own good.

They could do all that before hand.

It doesn't seem like it.

Perhaps, so we can learn to think for ourselves. If God went up to Adam and said, "Here, eat this fruit." Afterwards Adam would go, "Cool thanks God, now what do you want me to do?" In that scenario man doesn't learn anything.

In the first scenerio he didn't learn anything either... how would God wanting us to eat from the fruit, telling us we'll die if we do and then punishing us?

Here Jimmy, don't eat this cookie, if you do eat this cookie you will go to your room...
*jimmy eats the cookie*
How dare you jimmy? Go to your room right now!
*a few hours later*
Jimmy I'm really glad you ate that cookie.

Not very logically, or scripturally sound.[/quote]
I'm saying God wanted Adam to eat the fruit, so Adam could obtain free will. Adam never chose to eat the fruit. He was told to by Eve, who was told to give it to him by the snake. Prior to eating the fruit, he never made his own choices, however, after he eats the fruit, he makes the cognitive choice to hide from God without any outside influence.

Also, look at the punishments. The punishment for eating the fruit isn't the punishment of death like God said it was. All the punishments were based on man's new founded thinking capacity. Adam started farming as his punishment, which most historians would agree is more advanced than the hunter-gatherer lifestyle Adam and Eve had in the Garden. Pain in childbirth, as Eve's punishment, is a direct result of a neonate's large head. A neonate's head is so large because it has to contain an unproportionally large brain. The snake's punishment of being hated and feared is a direct result of man learning that snakes are dangerous and deadly.

[Sociobiology]

In the first scenerio he didn't learn anything either... how would God wanting us to eat from the fruit, telling us we'll die if we do and then punishing us?

he taught them God lies and deceives, and that the snake told the truth and was punished for it, so it also taught them that God's morality is the morality of a tyrant.
So God's first act after humans acquire the ability to tell right from wrong is to show them he does not care about right and wrong, but wanted obedient slaves instead.

[Benuty]

In the first scenerio he didn't learn anything either... how would God wanting us to eat from the fruit, telling us we'll die if we do and then punishing us?

he taught them God lies and deceives, and that the snake told the truth and was punished for it, so it also taught them that God's morality is the morality of a tyrant.
So God's first act after humans acquire the ability to tell right from wrong is to show them he does not care about right and wrong, but wanted obedient slaves instead.

What tanach are you reading?

Hopefully not the KJV tanach...eww.

[Sociobiology]

he taught them God lies and deceives, and that the snake told the truth and was punished for it, so it also taught them that God's morality is the morality of a tyrant.
So God's first act after humans acquire the ability to tell right from wrong is to show them he does not care about right and wrong, but wanted obedient slaves instead.

What tanach are you reading?

Hopefully not the KJV tanach...eww.

4. And the serpent said to the woman, "You will surely not die.
5. For God knows that on the day that you eat thereof, your eyes will be opened, and you will be like angels, knowing good and evil."

the Snake tells the truth

17. But of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat of it, for on the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die."

God lies

14. And the Lord God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed be you more than all the cattle and more than all the beasts of the field; you shall walk on your belly, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

the snake is punished for telling the truth.

whatever the authors intention, the modern moral is quite clear, God is a dictator keeping slaves and punishes slaves for bettering themselves against his wishes, much as a plantation owner would punish a slave for learning to read because it makes them harder to control.
And he punishes those who tell the truth, if it is a truth he does not want known, much like how Putin treats journalists.

the whole piece of literature reads like a twisted version of Uncle Tom's Cabin, where tom suffers Stockholm syndrome.

[Confederated Southern States]

All the cool people are in hell.

Unlikely, since there is no hell.

My good friend, it's called a joke. Simmer down.

Pun intended.

[The Rich Port]

Unlikely, since there is no hell.

My good friend, it's called a joke. Simmer down.

Pun intended.

Besides, if there is a Hell, my guess is God slips in every now and then to simmer up some lasciviously sweet devil ladies and toss a couple shots back with good ol' Uncle Lucie.

Dem Down Below Girls

[Menassa]

No, Eve was never told not to eat from the Tree.

So?

So after what Adam had told her had been showed to be false... she would have no problem believing the snake over Adam.

Yes they were.
Genesis 2:17
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

They feared death. Like an animal.

You're mixing two of our arguments, you stated they would not know what happened to them... I should you how they would.

Adam is not like an animal at all, you see God told Adam to guard or 'keep' the garden i.e. take care of it... and Adam listened to his creator who he knew better than you or I.

He's like a trained dog. Master told him to do something, so he did it. Master told him not to do it, so he didn't do it. Someone else told him to do it, so he did it. He doesn't think on his own.

However he does think for this own, he feels idebted to his creator for creating him... where there were no trees in the Garden he prayed for rain.

Adam never met the snake.

Fine, the snake convinces Eve to take some fruit to Adam where they will both eat it, for their own good.

They could do all that before hand.

It doesn't seem like it.

According to your?

I'm saying God wanted Adam to eat the fruit, so Adam could obtain free will.

Adam made the coginiative choice to listen to his wife and eat from the fruit, Eve mad the cognitive choice to listen to the snake and eat from the fruit.

Adam never chose to eat the fruit.

However he did.

He was told to by Eve, who was told to give it to him by the snake.

He was deceived by Eve in an attempt to not be alone with all that 'knowledge'

Prior to eating the fruit, he never made his own choices, however, after he eats the fruit, he makes the cognitive choice to hide from God without any outside influence.

Adam did make many of his own choices, to pray, to listen to God, to ask of God....

Also, look at the punishments. The punishment for eating the fruit isn't the punishment of death like God said it was. All the punishments were based on man's new founded thinking capacity. Adam started farming as his punishment, which most historians would agree is more advanced than the hunter-gatherer lifestyle Adam and Eve had in the Garden.

How is farming based on his ability to have free- will? Hunters and gatherers don't need free-will but farmers do? The punishment was that he would need to farm for his food at it would be painful.. no longer would the food be put in the ground and shoot up ready.

Pain in childbirth, as Eve's punishment, is a direct result of a neonate's large head. A neonate's head is so large because it has to contain an unproportionally large brain.

Pain in Childbirth was like 1 of Eve's many punishments.

The snake's punishment of being hated and feared is a direct result of man learning that snakes are dangerous and deadly.

The snake lost it's arms and legs and must now sliver on the ground as well.... or did you forget the snake walked and talked?

[Pensalum]

All the cool people are in hell./quote]
Unlikely, since there is no hell.

What do you expect from a mistranslation of Jewish text?

I read about how hell is mistranslated from like three different words. I think there were gehenna, sheol and tartarus. The only thing I remember is that one of them is a trash dump in Israel, or something along those lines. None of them actually related to the Christian idea of hell.

[Menassa]

What do you expect from a mistranslation of Jewish text?

I read about how hell is mistranslated from like three different words. I think there were gehenna, sheol and tartarus. The only thing I remember is that one of them is a trash dump in Israel, or something along those lines. None of them actually related to the Christian idea of hell.

The Christian idea of hell follows the Greek idea of Hades...

Gehenna was a trash dump, but more importantly was the place where people would sacrifice their children in fire.

[Pensalum]

I read about how hell is mistranslated from like three different words. I think there were gehenna, sheol and tartarus. The only thing I remember is that one of them is a trash dump in Israel, or something along those lines. None of them actually related to the Christian idea of hell.

The Christian idea of hell follows the Greek idea of Hades...

Gehenna was a trash dump, but more importantly was the place where people would sacrifice their children in fire.

Yikes. It's funny how Christians kind of made up stuff, kind of makes me feel bad.

[Menassa]

The Christian idea of hell follows the Greek idea of Hades...

Gehenna was a trash dump, but more importantly was the place where people would sacrifice their children in fire.

Yikes. It's funny how Christians kind of made up stuff, kind of makes me feel bad.

I wouldn't say 'make stuff up' perhaps compile ideas?

[Pensalum]

Yikes. It's funny how Christians kind of made up stuff, kind of makes me feel bad.

I wouldn't say 'make stuff up' perhaps compile ideas?

I guess borrowed would describe it better. We did take from a lot of beliefs.

[Pandeeria]

Yikes. It's funny how Christians kind of made up stuff, kind of makes me feel bad.

I wouldn't say 'make stuff up' perhaps compile ideas?

They complied ideas and then poorly translated them all together. That's the way I see it.

[Norstal]

All the cool people are in hell.

Unlikely, since there is no hell.

It's sad to say, but New Jersey still exists.

[Benuty]

Unlikely, since there is no hell.

It's sad to say, but New Jersey still exists.

Since when is New Jersey a place of unending & stewing pit of gaseous bowel movement bile?

[Neo Rome Republic]

I wouldn't say 'make stuff up' perhaps compile ideas?

I guess borrowed would describe it better. We did take from a lot of beliefs.

Doesn't that make your belief man-made and/or false? if you just made things up along the way.

[Benuty]

I guess borrowed would describe it better. We did take from a lot of beliefs.

Doesn't that make your belief man-made and/or false? if you just made things up along the way.

Well to be fair cultural viewpoints had quite a lot to do with the compiling of certain issues.

[Dyakovo]

Yikes. It's funny how Christians kind of made up stuff, kind of makes me feel bad.

I wouldn't say 'make stuff up' perhaps compile ideas?

Every religion is made up, so his statement is accurate.

[Neo Rome Republic]

Doesn't that make your belief man-made and/or false? if you just made things up along the way.

Well to be fair cultural viewpoints had quite a lot to do with the compiling of certain issues.

Which heavily entails it is entirely man-made.