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Should minimum wage be raised?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:24 pm

Yes
63
51%
No
27
22%
No minimum wage
15
12%
Give everyone benefits but keep minimal
6
5%
Give more benefits and increase
12
10%
 
Total votes : 123

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Blasveck
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Postby Blasveck » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. Yes, because we need more poor people starving in the fucking streets. :roll:

2. But living IS. And you have to work to get the money to live. So yes, working IS a right. As is a living wage.

3. Bullshit. If an employer can't be fucking bothered to pay me enough to live, why the fuck should I be bothered to appreciate the "opportunity" to slave myself out to them until I die?

4. Except, doing so requires this thing. Called education. That you have to pay for with this thing. Called money. If you can't make enough money on minimum wage to get the education required to move up.

5. There's a difference between working hard to achieve your goals, and slaving yourself to a corporation for barely any pay, and having to thank them for the 'privilege'.

6. Has nothing to do with "laziness". Instead, its a matter of NOBODY can be expected to work their ass off as hard as is required to obtain the money to obtain the education required to move up the ladder. You either have to be Superman, doing illegal activities, or performing sexual favors on your boss in order to move up the ladder while working for minimum wage.


Um the world band defines the poverty line as being $1.25 per day and I believe the UN uses the figure of $2 a day. Thus minimum wage in the usa is 3.25x that of the un poverty line per day for working just one hour! if we assume that an average work day is say 8 hours then that means that someone making minimum wage in the usa is making 28x the un poverty line. I would say that's a "living wage" :)


It certainly is a "living wage" if you live in fucking Nigeria.

But this is America, and shit is a lot more expensive compared to Nigeria.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. Yes, because we need more poor people starving in the fucking streets. :roll:

2. But living IS. And you have to work to get the money to live. So yes, working IS a right. As is a living wage.

3. Bullshit. If an employer can't be fucking bothered to pay me enough to live, why the fuck should I be bothered to appreciate the "opportunity" to slave myself out to them until I die?

4. Except, doing so requires this thing. Called education. That you have to pay for with this thing. Called money. If you can't make enough money on minimum wage to get the education required to move up.

5. There's a difference between working hard to achieve your goals, and slaving yourself to a corporation for barely any pay, and having to thank them for the 'privilege'.

6. Has nothing to do with "laziness". Instead, its a matter of NOBODY can be expected to work their ass off as hard as is required to obtain the money to obtain the education required to move up the ladder. You either have to be Superman, doing illegal activities, or performing sexual favors on your boss in order to move up the ladder while working for minimum wage.


Um the world band defines the poverty line as being $1.25 per day and I believe the UN uses the figure of $2 a day. Thus minimum wage in the usa is 3.25x that of the un poverty line per day for working just one hour! if we assume that an average work day is say 8 hours then that means that someone making minimum wage in the usa is making 28x the un poverty line. I would say that's a "living wage" :)


Purchasing Power Parity is a thing. Try again.
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Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
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Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

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Saint Kitten
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Postby Saint Kitten » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:42 pm

Hmm, did not expect this to flair up again, interesting...
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Dazchan
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Postby Dazchan » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:07 pm

Llamalandia wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
1. Yes, because we need more poor people starving in the fucking streets. :roll:

2. But living IS. And you have to work to get the money to live. So yes, working IS a right. As is a living wage.

3. Bullshit. If an employer can't be fucking bothered to pay me enough to live, why the fuck should I be bothered to appreciate the "opportunity" to slave myself out to them until I die?

4. Except, doing so requires this thing. Called education. That you have to pay for with this thing. Called money. If you can't make enough money on minimum wage to get the education required to move up.

5. There's a difference between working hard to achieve your goals, and slaving yourself to a corporation for barely any pay, and having to thank them for the 'privilege'.

6. Has nothing to do with "laziness". Instead, its a matter of NOBODY can be expected to work their ass off as hard as is required to obtain the money to obtain the education required to move up the ladder. You either have to be Superman, doing illegal activities, or performing sexual favors on your boss in order to move up the ladder while working for minimum wage.


Um the world band defines the poverty line as being $1.25 per day and I believe the UN uses the figure of $2 a day. Thus minimum wage in the usa is 3.25x that of the un poverty line per day for working just one hour! if we assume that an average work day is say 8 hours then that means that someone making minimum wage in the usa is making 28x the un poverty line. I would say that's a "living wage" :)


That would be extreme poverty, not poverty. Learn the difference.
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Iwanawin
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Postby Iwanawin » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:44 pm

Gauthier wrote:Can someone explain the logic behind the claim that raising minimum wages to 10 or 15 dollars for fast food employees will somehow devalue the dollar or bankrupt a billion dollar industry?

It devalues the dollar because the more money everyone gets the less the money is worth. Believe it or not we need the rich to survive.
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Salandriagado
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Postby Salandriagado » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:45 pm

Iwanawin wrote:
Gauthier wrote:Can someone explain the logic behind the claim that raising minimum wages to 10 or 15 dollars for fast food employees will somehow devalue the dollar or bankrupt a billion dollar industry?

It devalues the dollar because the more money everyone gets the less the money is worth. Believe it or not we need the rich to survive.


This is bullshit. The more money is in circulation (relative to various things), the less that money is worth. How it is distributed has a negligible effect on this.
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Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Iwanawin
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Postby Iwanawin » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:46 pm

Dazchan wrote:
Llamalandia wrote:
Um the world band defines the poverty line as being $1.25 per day and I believe the UN uses the figure of $2 a day. Thus minimum wage in the usa is 3.25x that of the un poverty line per day for working just one hour! if we assume that an average work day is say 8 hours then that means that someone making minimum wage in the usa is making 28x the un poverty line. I would say that's a "living wage" :)


That would be extreme poverty, not poverty. Learn the difference.



No genteria, if you raise minimum your getting more pay that is equal to the pay you already got because you have to raise everyone else's pay as well.
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Fireye
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Postby Fireye » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:57 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
No. They should not be paid more. They earn what their labor skills are valued at.

And what's it valued at?

When they fuck up my plain cheeseburger 3/4 times, sure as fuck not $15.00/hr.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:21 pm

LOSt TEJANOS wrote:As if we are not over-breeding even our society-created environment. :roll:


There isn't an overpopulation problem in the US. Certainly China and India are overpopulated, but a lot of developed nations have sub replacement level birth rates where there are fewer people being born than there are people dying in a given year. The US birth rate is currently at 1.89 when the replacement level is at 2.1 minimum to replace a generation.

Bitch about poor people having children all you want, but if the rich aren't statistically as likely to have as many kids or form families; I can't say I particularly care if some poorer people decide to have kids anyways. At least they are doing more to sustain the demographic base. Relying on just immigration results in the loss of a nation's ethnic culture.

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Postby Gauthier » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:05 pm

Fireye wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:And what's it valued at?

When they fuck up my plain cheeseburger 3/4 times, sure as fuck not $15.00/hr.


If I got paid $15.00/hr I'd make every single cheeseburger into a goddamn filet mignon.
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Postby Distruzio » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:29 pm

Arumdaum wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
No. They should not be paid more. They earn what their labor skills are valued at.

And what's it valued at?


Minimum wage.
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Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:50 am

Distruzio wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:And what's it valued at?


Minimum wage.

And if the minimum wage is $15, it'd be what their labor skills are valued at.
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Postby Jagalonia » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:58 am

Why would anyone want to pay an entry level job more than they have to? If your job can be done by a trained chimp, you get minimum wage. I expect they're not actually expecting to get the raise, they just threw that in there so the company would take them a little more seriously...They'll probably settle for benefits.
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Postby European Socialist Republic » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:02 am

Jagalonia wrote:Why would anyone want to pay an entry level job more than they have to? If your job can be done by a trained chimp, you get minimum wage.

My hamburger tastes like monkey.
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Postby Xin Prussia » Sat Sep 07, 2013 1:06 am

Fireye wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:And what's it valued at?

When they fuck up my plain cheeseburger 3/4 times, sure as fuck not $15.00/hr.


When you buy shit, don't complain when you get served shit.

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Postby Distruzio » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:19 am

Arumdaum wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Minimum wage.

And if the minimum wage is $15, it'd be what their labor skills are valued at.


Their labor skills would be overvalued artificially. Resulting in fewer employees, fewer luxuries in the restaurants, and fewer franchises.
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Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:33 am

Distruzio wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:And if the minimum wage is $15, it'd be what their labor skills are valued at.


Their labor skills would be overvalued artificially. Resulting in fewer employees, fewer luxuries in the restaurants, and fewer franchises.

How'd it be overvalued artificially?

How do you measure what labor skills are actually worth then?

Increased wages would allow for people to purchase more products from businesses and eat more expensive things at restaurants, making up for part, if not most or all, of the cost. It'd also allow for those who earn less than $15/hour to lead much more comfortable lives, although they'd probably still be financially insecure.
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Postby Distruzio » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:44 am

Arumdaum wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
Their labor skills would be overvalued artificially. Resulting in fewer employees, fewer luxuries in the restaurants, and fewer franchises.

How'd it be overvalued artificially?

How do you measure what labor skills are actually worth then?


Their labor skills are a commodity. It's what they sell to employers. Employers are, obviously, not interested in paying too much for a service. Therefore they offer a price they are willing to settle for. Those employees who do not accept this new price take their wares elsewhere.

The employer owns the job. Not the employee.
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Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:31 am

Distruzio wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:How'd it be overvalued artificially?

How do you measure what labor skills are actually worth then?


Their labor skills are a commodity. It's what they sell to employers. Employers are, obviously, not interested in paying too much for a service. Therefore they offer a price they are willing to settle for. Those employees who do not accept this new price take their wares elsewhere.

The employer owns the job. Not the employee.

Nor are would be workers or workers very interested in not receiving much in return for the labor that they're required to sell. Things such as the minimum wage and other things help workers get what they wouldn't otherwise receive. The capitalist possesses much more power than the worker in negotiations, and a settled agreement doesn't necessarily mean satisfaction.

Workers don't have as much choice as you suggest. Money is a necessary commodity, and the main way for people who have nothing to obtain it is through selling their labor for designated periods of time. Getting a job isn't like going to a store that possesses everything with a lot of money to buy something you want. A job that you want isn't often there, nor are there always open jobs.

Where do they go? It's often impossible to move somewhere else for jobs due to the lack of money.

So capitalists possess capital and can purchase people's labor. So what?
Last edited by ArUmdAUM on Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Grenartia » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:33 am

Gauthier wrote:
Fireye wrote:When they fuck up my plain cheeseburger 3/4 times, sure as fuck not $15.00/hr.


If I got paid $15.00/hr I'd make every single cheeseburger into a goddamn filet mignon.


Getting AQ'd. :rofl:

Distruzio wrote:
Arumdaum wrote:How'd it be overvalued artificially?

How do you measure what labor skills are actually worth then?


Their labor skills are a commodity. It's what they sell to employers. Employers are, obviously, not interested in paying too much for a service. Therefore they offer a price they are willing to settle for. Those employees who do not accept this new price take their wares elsewhere.

The employer owns the job. Not the employee.


I like how you totally ignored the valid point Arum made at the end of his post.
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Postby Salandriagado » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:32 am

Iwanawin wrote:
Dazchan wrote:
That would be extreme poverty, not poverty. Learn the difference.



No genteria, if you raise minimum your getting more pay that is equal to the pay you already got because you have to raise everyone else's pay as well.


Bullshit.
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Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

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Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Postby Yes Im Biop » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:35 am

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Postby Big Jim P » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:54 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Iwanawin wrote:

No genteria, if you raise minimum your getting more pay that is equal to the pay you already got because you have to raise everyone else's pay as well.


Bullshit.


Indeed. When I started working the minimum wage was $3.35 an hour. I have gone through several increases in the minimum wage, and never once were MY wages increased proportionally.

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Fireye
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Postby Fireye » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:20 am

Xin Prussia wrote:
Fireye wrote:When they fuck up my plain cheeseburger 3/4 times, sure as fuck not $15.00/hr.


When you buy shit, don't complain when you get served shit.

That's no excuse, and it CERTAINLY doesn't justify $15.00/hr wages.

Just because I'm not buying at a top-fucking-shelf steakhouse is no excuse for my order, which was clearly stated and clearly repeated back to me, and clearly written on both the receipt I was given at the register and the receipt I was given with the food, to be completely and utterly not what I actually paid money for.

Example:
Ordered: plain cheeseburger.
Received: Chicken Sandwich with Mayonnaise, Ketchup, pickle and God knows what else.

While this is the most extreme example that has personally happened to me, when I order a burger with Bread, meat and cheese only, I should get Bread, Meat and Cheese ONLY. No matter WHERE I order it from. The fact that there are several restaurants that have blown their third chances (no one's perfect, and I'll forgive the first time, overlook the second and on the third time, I WILL stop going to that location.)
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