Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Gauthier]

Hmm. I don't recall saying she did anything "wrong." Just that she looks and acts like "shit" and trying to come off as hot, she's not really doing a great job.

Not outright, but as I read it the implication that she did something wrong was here:

Eh, whatever. It was still funny.

As to her performance, I found it to be kinda gross. She kinda lost that whole girl next door thing that she had going for awhile.

As if somehow shedding the Disney-fied image meant losing something vital or important.

And while you might consider her performance "slutty" or some honorific, bear in mind that Miley's in a stable relationship and engaged, while "wholesome" Taylor Swift has gone through at least three confirmed men in one year. So, who's the more "wholesome" one now?

Now now... Taylor Swift needs new song materials after all.

[The Rich Port]

Can you give me examples to the contrary?

The ones I can think of all have.

Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and now Selena Gomez and Miley Cyrus.

You could argue that you don't hear about the ones that don't go off the rails. I honestly can't think of any off the top of my head, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. I don't think it's just singers either. Lindsay Lohan being one example. I wasn't aware Selena had gone off the rails, but her videos have become raunchier. Not at all surprising, though.

Actually, Lindsay Lohan put out a crappy album sometime during her peak... About 8 years ago.

Technically, she's a pop star.

Selena Gomez is also acting out, but is being more mellow about it.

My guess is, she's just shallow and in it for the money, whereas Miley Cyrus might have deeper issues.

[The Grey Wolf]

The performance was shit, mainly because Cyrus was trying to be sexy and controversial.
"Slut shaming." The favorite phrase of the feminist.

[Cannot think of a name]

Here's what you do. Get out from under the sheet where you have reflexively gone to defend Ms. Cyrus from all those mean ol' attackers and actually consider what's being said instead of railing against an assumed bunch of meany heads. It will help you understand what people are saying without having to randomly guess, and guess poorly, as to what the arguments are. Because holy crap dude. I don't even know what that last sentence even implies much less asks. What are we even arguing at this point?

I'm not defending anybody, I wasn't a fan of her performance either, but on the basis that it was crap and odd in general. I don't need to resort to vague obtuse cries of "sorta racial insensitivity but not really".

Unless you can be a bit more specific than the standard Public Enemy argument, which you don't even seem to be fully implying either. You stated that Miley somehow was breaching some sort of "appropriation", but then backtracked and acknowledged that she freely cites that in fact hip-hop stylings as her latest inspiration, so what exactly is the problem with her performance in regards to this vague pseudo cultural/artistic insensitivity you seem to think everyone is blissfully unaware of?

Here's the problem, you zig zagging across a half understanding of the situation is not me backtracking. I have never once raised the issue of whether or not she gave out proper credit. Where did you get that idea? Why is me going "What?" a backtrack?

This is why I think you haven't read the complaints. Because literally none of them are about her taking credit for the act of twirking. I haven't the foggiest idea where you could have even got that notion much less the idea that I've 'backed off it.'

No one is complaining about her 'secretly' using black culture to exoticise herself. Also, I have been ridiculing for pages the idea that there is only cross burning racism or nothing at all, so this difficulty you have with understanding the degrees to which things are done is entirely within you and why I suggest that you might not have the tools for this discussion.

If you cannot come to a conception that the performance was part of a long history of using marginalized black culture as a dress up/costume for the mainstream culture that uses blackness and sexuality and exoticism interchangeably without having to insist that this was some sort of mastermind machination of a 20 year old pop star, that's a problem you're having because the arguments could not have been clearer and you've been all over the fucking map. I mean seriously. "Backing off" an argument I never fucking made? Half the time I feel like you're just quoting the wrong person.

This is the shit I said back on page fucking three-

The issue of cultural appropriation in this context is an old one and in so much this is not the most grievous example but merely enough to be able to continue the conversation.

Tell me how I'm backtracking again? This is why I feel you're not actually reading this shit but just locked into some sort of devil's advocacy where you're sure you'll be right eventually or something. Whatever it is, I don't get it.

Let me give you one more guideline so in a page or so you can ask me again how she was deliberately racist or I don't know...ask me some non-sequitor about Public Enemy because apparently they're the only ones you've ever heard of having a problem with Elvis...

1. You can do racist shit and not actually be aware of it.
2. You can be part of a long running racist narrative and not be aware of it.
3. You can be on the wrong end of a long running racist narrative and either not be aware of it or have complicated notions about it that other members of your community will disagree with, it can be such a conversation that movies get made about it.
4. The fact that these long running narratives are long running doesn't make them okay.
5. Participating in them does not make you The Worst Person Ever and no one is saying that's so.
6. Ignoring them does not make them go away.

Read the articles that others have linked. I mean actually read them this time, don't just huffily tell me that you totally read them and then ask me a bunch of nonsense questions that indicate that you did not. Because that's whats been happening, for like pages now.

[New England and The Maritimes]

If this has already been posted, I apologize.

This is the perfect explanation of what we're trying to say. If you read it and still don't get it, you're not going to learn anything else from here on out.

Cultural imperialism is real. It's not "LOL BLACK PEOPLE CANT OWN A DANCE LOL" its "When black people do it they are ridiculed universally, when white people do it it's an artistic performance to defend or attack on the merits of the person doing it." That's why it isn't ok.

[Ifreann]

The performance was shit, mainly because Cyrus was trying to be...controversial...

How so?

[Northern Dominus]

If this has already been posted, I apologize.

This is the perfect explanation of what we're trying to say. If you read it and still don't get it, you're not going to learn anything else from here on out.

Cultural imperialism is real. It's not "LOL BLACK PEOPLE CANT OWN A DANCE LOL" its "When black people do it they are ridiculed universally, when white people do it it's an artistic performance to defend or attack on the merits of the person doing it." That's why it isn't ok.

So... as I understand it, the article reads as "Miley Cyrus did a bad thing because her backup dancer was a prop like every other backup dancer, but since Miley's white and the dancer was black it was suddenly insensitive."

Yeah, not seeing anything more controversial either in that article or from other NSG posters that isn't being manufactured to get their own ideas out and use Miley Cyrus' admittedly lame and odd performance as a convenient springboard.

[Bottle]

The performance was shit, mainly because Cyrus was trying to be...controversial...

How so?

A young, conventionally attractive, white woman dressed in skimpy clothing for the purpose of selling a product? Tre controversial!

[Northern Dominus]

How so?

A young, conventionally attractive, white woman dressed in skimpy clothing for the purpose of selling a product? Tre controversial!

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

[Bottle]

A young, conventionally attractive, white woman dressed in skimpy clothing for the purpose of selling a product? Tre controversial!

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

I would say "parents" or "society in general" rather than "housewives," but otherwise probably also valid.

[Nazis in Space]

If this has already been posted, I apologize.

This is the perfect explanation of what we're trying to say. If you read it and still don't get it, you're not going to learn anything else from here on out.

Cultural imperialism is real. It's not "LOL BLACK PEOPLE CANT OWN A DANCE LOL" its "When black people do it they are ridiculed universally, when white people do it it's an artistic performance to defend or attack on the merits of the person doing it." That's why it isn't ok.

^{[citation needed]}

I'm pretty sure that 'White suburban middleclass' isn't the same thing as 'Universal'.

[Northern Dominus]

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

I would say "parents" or "society in general" rather than "housewives," but otherwise probably also valid.

See, I don't think as a whole society finds Miley Cyrus that controversial. Society includes those of us who were introduced to bumpin n grinding and an early age and grew up with this evolution of hip-hop artistry and culture, and we've seen Britney Spears, Chrstina Aguleria, Mya etc. etc.

No, I rest by my previous assertation of "overprotective and inattentive housewives", but more as a general mindset rather than a segment of society, although the actual overprotective and inattentive housewife probably makes up the type. Look to Joe Scarborough's pet woman on his show or any harpy prattling on and on about how Miley is so awful and you get the general type, and both men and women who are seemingly ignorant of pop culture in general fit into that category.

[Ifreann]

How so?

A young, conventionally attractive, white woman dressed in skimpy clothing for the purpose of selling a product? Tre controversial!

Oh yes, very. Ban this sick filth and whatnot.

[Calimera II]

Nobody Cares. THAT'S IT.

[The Grey Wolf]

A young, conventionally attractive, white woman dressed in skimpy clothing for the purpose of selling a product? Tre controversial!

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

Great. More feminist bullshit.
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

[Ifreann]

Nobody Cares. THAT'S IT.

He said on page 35 of the thread.

---

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

Great. More feminist bullshit.
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

Because realistically a great number of people do it without being whores.

[Nazis in Space]

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

Great. More feminist bullshit. :roll:
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

The 'Unrealistic Expectations' are 'Continuing the family-friendly Hannah-Montana image past her early teens and well into her twenties because it makes the segment of the population that walks around with a giant stick located firmly in its collective anus feel better about itself and its expectations of how everyone else should act, too'.

It's not a particularly difficult point to get, and I'm genuinely curious where you took the wrong turn to end up with the nonsense you wrote.

[Bottle]

I would say "parents" or "society in general" rather than "housewives," but otherwise probably also valid.

See, I don't think as a whole society finds Miley Cyrus that controversial. Society includes those of us who were introduced to bumpin n grinding and an early age and grew up with this evolution of hip-hop artistry and culture, and we've seen Britney Spears, Chrstina Aguleria, Mya etc. etc.

Society in general is deeply fucked up in its attitudes toward women who "bump and grind." This is not limited to housewives. Indeed, many of the champions of sexiness are also the most sexist.

No, I rest by my previous assertation of "overprotective and inattentive housewives", but more as a general mindset rather than a segment of society, although the actual overprotective and inattentive housewife probably makes up the type. Look to Joe Scarborough's pet woman on his show or any harpy prattling on and on about how Miley is so awful and you get the general type, and both men and women who are seemingly ignorant of pop culture in general fit into that category.

Yes, women are often used as token enforcers. No, this does not mean they are the origin of these tropes, nor that they are the only ones to be blamed for them. The way that men and women express sexism may differ, but we're all swimming in the same sexist soup of a culture.

Sorry guys, you're not off the hook. Nobody is (including me!).

[Bottle]

Or alternatively "Attractive young adult woman who feels artificially constrained by unrealistic expectations placed upon her by simultaniously overprotective and inattentive housewives wishes to break out out of that position and chose tried and true method." Equally shocking I tell ya.

Great. More feminist bullshit.
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

Statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority of people who dance provocatively are not whores.

If your "realistic expectations" directly contradict reality, you're gonna have a bad time.

[Nazis in Space]

Great. More feminist bullshit. :roll:
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

Statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority of people who dance provocatively are not whores.

If your "realistic expectations" directly contradict reality, you're gonna have a bad time.

I really don't like the term 'Provocative' when it comes to dressing, dancing, etc..

I much prefer sexy. Or sexily. Or attractive. What-have-you.

[Greed and Death]

Statistically speaking, the overwhelming majority of people who dance provocatively are not whores.

If your "realistic expectations" directly contradict reality, you're gonna have a bad time.

I really don't like the term 'Provocative' when it comes to dressing, dancing, etc..

I much prefer sexy. Or sexily. Or attractive. What-have-you.

I concur provocative sounds like rape apologist type language.

[Ifreann]

Great. More feminist bullshit.
Please tell me how finding dancing like a stripper and grinding against a man whorish is an unrealistic expectation?

The 'Unrealistic Expectations' are 'Continuing the family-friendly Hannah-Montana image past her early teens and well into her twenties because it makes the segment of the population that walks around with a giant stick located firmly in its collective anus feel better about itself and its expectations of how everyone else should act, too'.

It's not a particularly difficult point to get, and I'm genuinely curious where you took the wrong turn to end up with the nonsense you wrote.

Feminism confuses and angers his penis, far as I can tell.

[Calimera II]

Nobody Cares. THAT'S IT.

He said on page 35 of the thread.

What an excellent observation!

[Gauthier]

He said on page 35 of the thread.

What an excellent observation!

Taking your precious time to tell everyone You Don't Care. How Edgy and Hip.

[Ifreann]

He said on page 35 of the thread.

What an excellent observation!

In fact it is, as it rather neatly refutes your assertion that nobody cares. Obviously people do care. You can tell because we've been talking about it for 35 pages. If nobody cared then the thread wouldn't have been posted in the first place. There wouldn't even be a news story.