Miley Cyrus VMA performance and modern views on sex and race

[Northern Dominus]

And... you don't think maybe she wanted to divorce herself from that image? That maybe she found it a bit suffocating and limiting, or she was just plain tired of being the "girl next door" and having to be a "role model" for young girls with mothers who are too stupid or irresponsible to help their daughters find better role models?

The only thing Miley Cyrus did that was "wrong" in any regard is that her performance was just odd and a bit boring. Sort of like Britney Spears... waitasec, Spears, christ we've been here before haven't we?

Hmm. I don't recall saying she did anything "wrong." Just that she looks and acts like "shit" and trying to come off as hot, she's not really doing a great job.

Not outright, but as I read it the implication that she did something wrong was here:

Eh, whatever. It was still funny.

As to her performance, I found it to be kinda gross. She kinda lost that whole girl next door thing that she had going for awhile.

As if somehow shedding the Disney-fied image meant losing something vital or important.

And while you might consider her performance "slutty" or some honorific, bear in mind that Miley's in a stable relationship and engaged, while "wholesome" Taylor Swift has gone through at least three confirmed men in one year. So, who's the more "wholesome" one now?

[Llamalandia]

Well iagree that if Cyrus were to say repeat the performance now (and it is in fact racial which i'm not convinced it is) then yeah iwould say she is a racist. Essentially ignorance is a defense is what i am in fact asserting.

But the problem here is that too say she was "dancing like black women so as to parody them", well that implies that you have already injected a certain level of racism into the matter intentionally as you have stereotyped (whether fair or unfair) how all black women act and that in and of itself is racist under your reasoning as far as understand it.

You say that as if noticing the context creates the context, which is of course ridiculous.

Look I'll simplify, you can either be colorblind or a racist. If youre colorblind you won't notice this if youre not then youre a defacto racist. Again like I said i doubt cyrus was intentionally racist (and I loathe to defend her) but in the abscence intentionality there is no racism, or at the very least any racism on here part is no more racist then that of her critics.

I mean are we saying cyrus can't twerk because she is white, cause that's kinda what it sounds like we're heading toward concluding here.

[Cannot think of a name]

You say that as if noticing the context creates the context, which is of course ridiculous.

Look I'll simplify, you can either be colorblind or a racist. If youre colorblind you won't notice this if youre not then youre a defacto racist.

That's just dumb as hell.

[Llamalandia]

Well iagree that if Cyrus were to say repeat the performance now (and it is in fact racial which i'm not convinced it is) then yeah iwould say she is a racist. Essentially ignorance is a defense is what i am in fact asserting.

But the problem here is that too say she was "dancing like black women so as to parody them", well that implies that you have already injected a certain level of racism into the matter intentionally as you have stereotyped (whether fair or unfair) how all black women act and that in and of itself is racist under your reasoning as far as understand it.

You say that as if noticing the context creates the context, which is of course ridiculous.

Let me pose it to you this way. before eminem there weren't many white "gangsta style" rappers (im sure there were a few but he's the first one of prominence i recall). Was he a racist for adopting what could by some be called a "black genre" of music. Or as others have brought up was Elvis a racist for essentially the same reason 50 years ago?

[Northern Dominus]

So... you're saying you take umbrage with Elvis as well for the same trespasses you find so egregious then?

Yes. Dear god, yes. Holy crap, you're starting to get it, despite continuing to throw up things that are emblematic of the problem thinking they are things that dismiss it as a problem. Elvis is in many ways the Gold Standard of this problem.

Ah, so we're going with the Public Enemy/Jackie Wilson argument.

Except Elvis, like Miley is now, was pretty upfront about his admiration for black gospel singers, especially Arthur Crudup. Miley Cyrus went out of her way to work with Pharell Williams on her last album from what I understand, so clearly neither "appropriated", but identified and have readily acknowledged where their influences come from in the first place.

So what exactly is "insensitive" about that?

[Llamalandia]

Look I'll simplify, you can either be colorblind or a racist. If youre colorblind you won't notice this if youre not then youre a defacto racist.

That's just dumb as hell.

Why? I didn't say it wasn't simplistic but I thinkk even you would have to admit there is a certain truth to it. I mean judge base not on skin color but on content of character. It's best in my expierience to try and ignore race as much possible because well race in adn of itself is meaningless it's only importance has been in how people have interpreted (or misinterpreted) it's significance in human expierience.

[Cannot think of a name]

Yes. Dear god, yes. Holy crap, you're starting to get it, despite continuing to throw up things that are emblematic of the problem thinking they are things that dismiss it as a problem. Elvis is in many ways the Gold Standard of this problem.

Ah, so we're going with the Public Enemy/Jackie Wilson argument.

Except Elvis, like Miley is now, was pretty upfront about his admiration for black gospel singers, especially Arthur Crudup. Miley Cyrus went out of her way to work with Pharell Williams on her last album from what I understand, so clearly neither "appropriated", but identified and have readily acknowledged where their influences come from in the first place.

So what exactly is "insensitive" about that?

Because the issue is not, nor was it ever, a lack of acknowledgement about where the influences come from.

[Cannot think of a name]

That's just dumb as hell.

Why? I didn't say it wasn't simplistic but I thinkk even you would have to admit there is a certain truth to it.

No, there isn't.

[Northern Dominus]

Ah, so we're going with the Public Enemy/Jackie Wilson argument.

Except Elvis, like Miley is now, was pretty upfront about his admiration for black gospel singers, especially Arthur Crudup. Miley Cyrus went out of her way to work with Pharell Williams on her last album from what I understand, so clearly neither "appropriated", but identified and have readily acknowledged where their influences come from in the first place.

So what exactly is "insensitive" about that?

Because the issue is not, nor was it ever, a lack of acknowledgement about where the influences come from.

Then what exactly is the issue then? Because if it's not "accidental racist" or "insensitivity by omission", then what exactly is the problem?

[Llamalandia]

Why? I didn't say it wasn't simplistic but I thinkk even you would have to admit there is a certain truth to it.

No, there isn't.

Ok then explain it to me please. All youve said so far is basically "that's dumb and no there isn't" not really very convincing counterpoints in my estimation.

But really why even bother "seeing race". Yes acknowledge real and overt (or even subtextual when fairly obvious) racism and fight against it sure. But this "accidental racism" that's ridiculous unless you are in fact asserting that ms cyrus is somehow intelligent enough to have planned to make this subtle racial jab (and that assume she had enough creative control over the performance as well). I mean if that's what youre asserting ok we might be able to get somewhere but otherwise I don't really see it. It was a terrible awful performance it just wasn't racist as far as i could tell (though honestly i'd barely even heard of "twerking" before the vmas).

[Cannot think of a name]

Because the issue is not, nor was it ever, a lack of acknowledgement about where the influences come from.

Then what exactly is the issue then? Because if it's not "accidental racist" or "insensitivity by omission", then what exactly is the problem?

Here's what you do. Get out from under the sheet where you have reflexively gone to defend Ms. Cyrus from all those mean ol' attackers and actually consider what's being said instead of railing against an assumed bunch of meany heads. It will help you understand what people are saying without having to randomly guess, and guess poorly, as to what the arguments are. Because holy crap dude. I don't even know what that last sentence even implies much less asks. What are we even arguing at this point?

[Forsakia]

So... you're saying you take umbrage with Elvis as well for the same trespasses you find so egregious then?

Yes. Dear god, yes. Holy crap, you're starting to get it, despite continuing to throw up things that are emblematic of the problem thinking they are things that dismiss it as a problem. Elvis is in many ways the Gold Standard of this problem.

Is Elvis as a cause of the problem (and hence worthy of criticism) or a symptom of it though?

Elvis (amongst others) who were heavily inspired by black musicians gained a lot of their success because black musicians were discriminated against. That is undeniable. But then these stars generally aren't the ones stopping the black musicians being successful, even if they are the beneficiaries of it.

Beyond that complaining that they are influenced by the music they listen to is an odd complaint. With Miley Cyrus the specific question of her twerking (which is separate from how she interacted with her back-up dancer) is not a defence of "it's ok because she has a black friend" but rather a mixture of "she's influenced by the people she's worked with" mixed in with the question of "are the black artists she works with not allowed to share 'their culture' with her?" (and that's leaving aside the point that people are defining this culture separation in black and white terms, when google tells me twerking comes specifically out of southern black culture and hence the use of it by non-southern african americans is itself a form of cultural appropriation.

But it comes back to the beneficiaries of something not necessarily being the perpetrators. White professional sports players in the pre-integration era, benefited significantly from segregation, but they were not the ones controlling or enforcing the segregation.

[Llamalandia]

Then what exactly is the issue then? Because if it's not "accidental racist" or "insensitivity by omission", then what exactly is the problem?

Here's what you do. Get out from under the sheet where you have reflexively gone to defend Ms. Cyrus from all those mean ol' attackers and actually consider what's being said instead of railing against an assumed bunch of meany heads. It will help you understand what people are saying without having to randomly guess, and guess poorly, as to what the arguments are. Because holy crap dude. I don't even know what that last sentence even implies much less asks. What are we even arguing at this point?

Seriously i don't get capital K Klansman form the post you quoted above. Did i miss something? If not I think you might want to inch down the rhetoric just a bit I mean we're all here for fair adn reaonable debate when people start making ad hominem attacks I begin questioning whther there negotiating in good faith and earnestness or are here just to lob rhetorical grenades.

If you hve other examples of racism on the part of this individual then let me know but otherwise i would ask for some simple common courtesy here.

[Llamalandia]

Yes. Dear god, yes. Holy crap, you're starting to get it, despite continuing to throw up things that are emblematic of the problem thinking they are things that dismiss it as a problem. Elvis is in many ways the Gold Standard of this problem.

Is Elvis as a cause of the problem (and hence worthy of criticism) or a symptom of it though?

Elvis (amongst others) who were heavily inspired by black musicians gained a lot of their success because black musicians were discriminated against. That is undeniable. But then these stars generally aren't the ones stopping the black musicians being successful, even if they are the beneficiaries of it.

Beyond that complaining that they are influenced by the music they listen to is an odd complaint. With Miley Cyrus the specific question of her twerking (which is separate from how she interacted with her back-up dancer) is not a defence of "it's ok because she has a black friend" but rather a mixture of "she's influenced by the people she's worked with" mixed in with the question of "are the black artists she works with not allowed to share 'their culture' with her?" (and that's leaving aside the point that people are defining this culture separation in black and white terms, when google tells me twerking comes specifically out of southern black culture and hence the use of it by non-southern african americans is itself a form of cultural appropriation.

But it comes back to the beneficiaries of something not necessarily being the perpetrators. White professional sports players in the pre-integration era, benefited significantly from segregation, but they were not the ones controlling or enforcing the segregation.

Exactly though I think one might even go as far as to argue that certain music genres are segrated to the benefit of non-caucasians (a stretch i admit but worth slight consideration). But i don't think miley is here benefitting from any kind of "privilege" here. If anyhting it's as you said she shares and is a part of the culture. That's the thing too, these days there isn't a black culture adn white culture so much as there is an overriding and more important shared american culture. We should celebrate diversity of all forms amongs and between artist (when they are good performers at least --obviously Cyrus isn't) rather than trying to inject diviseness along a racial fault line.

[Cannot think of a name]

Yes. Dear god, yes. Holy crap, you're starting to get it, despite continuing to throw up things that are emblematic of the problem thinking they are things that dismiss it as a problem. Elvis is in many ways the Gold Standard of this problem.

Is Elvis as a cause of the problem (and hence worthy of criticism) or a symptom of it though?

A symptom. Has that not been clear? What gave you the impression that it was otherwise?

Elvis (amongst others) who were heavily inspired by black musicians gained a lot of their success because black musicians were discriminated against. That is undeniable. But then these stars generally aren't the ones stopping the black musicians being successful, even if they are the beneficiaries of it.

Beyond that complaining that they are influenced by the music they listen to is an odd complaint. With Miley Cyrus the specific question of her twerking (which is separate from how she interacted with her back-up dancer) is not a defence of "it's ok because she has a black friend" but rather a mixture of "she's influenced by the people she's worked with" mixed in with the question of "are the black artists she works with not allowed to share 'their culture' with her?" (and that's leaving aside the point that people are defining this culture separation in black and white terms, when google tells me twerking comes specifically out of southern black culture and hence the use of it by non-southern african americans is itself a form of cultural appropriation.

It's not an issue of who can and cannot do a thing or be influenced by a thing, it's the cultural narrative and the assumptions that are made with it.

But it comes back to the beneficiaries of something not necessarily being the perpetrators. White professional sports players in the pre-integration era, benefited significantly from segregation, but they were not the ones controlling or enforcing the segregation.

That does not mean that we cannot point out the situation and consider its implications.

[Cannot think of a name]

Here's what you do. Get out from under the sheet where you have reflexively gone to defend Ms. Cyrus from all those mean ol' attackers and actually consider what's being said instead of railing against an assumed bunch of meany heads. It will help you understand what people are saying without having to randomly guess, and guess poorly, as to what the arguments are. Because holy crap dude. I don't even know what that last sentence even implies much less asks. What are we even arguing at this point?

Seriously i don't get capital K Klansman form the post you quoted above. Did i miss something? If not I think you might want to inch down the rhetoric just a bit I mean we're all here for fair adn reaonable debate when people start making ad hominem attacks I begin questioning whther there negotiating in good faith and earnestness or are here just to lob rhetorical grenades.

If you hve other examples of racism on the part of this individual then let me know but otherwise i would ask for some simple common courtesy here.

You know, I racked my brain to try and figure out what the hell you were talking about and I think I figured it out. You think when I said 'sheet' you mean the ones worn by Klansmen. I was not. I was referring back to the earlier mention of Chris Crocker. Given the subject matter I should have seen that coming and been clearer.

[Llamalandia]

Is Elvis as a cause of the problem (and hence worthy of criticism) or a symptom of it though?

A symptom. Has that not been clear? What gave you the impression that it was otherwise?

Elvis (amongst others) who were heavily inspired by black musicians gained a lot of their success because black musicians were discriminated against. That is undeniable. But then these stars generally aren't the ones stopping the black musicians being successful, even if they are the beneficiaries of it.

Beyond that complaining that they are influenced by the music they listen to is an odd complaint. With Miley Cyrus the specific question of her twerking (which is separate from how she interacted with her back-up dancer) is not a defence of "it's ok because she has a black friend" but rather a mixture of "she's influenced by the people she's worked with" mixed in with the question of "are the black artists she works with not allowed to share 'their culture' with her?" (and that's leaving aside the point that people are defining this culture separation in black and white terms, when google tells me twerking comes specifically out of southern black culture and hence the use of it by non-southern african americans is itself a form of cultural appropriation.

It's not an issue of who can and cannot do a thing or be influenced by a thing, it's the cultural narrative and the assumptions that are made with it.

But it comes back to the beneficiaries of something not necessarily being the perpetrators. White professional sports players in the pre-integration era, benefited significantly from segregation, but they were not the ones controlling or enforcing the segregation.

That does not mean that we cannot point out the situation and consider its implications.

Look i never brought any racialized assumption to the performance. Isaw it as a talentless hack trying to generate attention by being outragous giving a horrible performance. I never even thought it was a racial thing until it was pointed out and once it was istill fail to see how it was racial. It seems to me the people with the problem here are those with preconceived notions adn agendas with respect to race in America. Again I'm not trying to defend her globally she's terrible but she's not as far as I can tell a racist.

[George Kaplan]

Hmm. I don't recall saying she did anything "wrong." Just that she looks and acts like "shit" and trying to come off as hot, she's not really doing a great job.

Not outright, but as I read it the implication that she did something wrong was here:

Eh, whatever. It was still funny.

As to her performance, I found it to be kinda gross. She kinda lost that whole girl next door thing that she had going for awhile.

As if somehow shedding the Disney-fied image meant losing something vital or important.

And while you might consider her performance "slutty" or some honorific, bear in mind that Miley's in a stable relationship and engaged, while "wholesome" Taylor Swift has gone through at least three confirmed men in one year. So, who's the more "wholesome" one now?

Yeah, she had a hot girl next door thing going on. Nothing about Disney or being wholesome. Just hot. And now she's not.

[Llamalandia]

Seriously i don't get capital K Klansman form the post you quoted above. Did i miss something? If not I think you might want to inch down the rhetoric just a bit I mean we're all here for fair adn reaonable debate when people start making ad hominem attacks I begin questioning whther there negotiating in good faith and earnestness or are here just to lob rhetorical grenades.

If you hve other examples of racism on the part of this individual then let me know but otherwise i would ask for some simple common courtesy here.

You know, I racked my brain to try and figure out what the hell you were talking about and I think I figured it out. You think when I said 'sheet' you mean the ones worn by Klansmen. I was not. I was referring back to the earlier mention of Chris Crocker. Given the subject matter I should have seen that coming and been clearer.

Apologies then on my part as well I should have picked up on that distinction myself but like i said i don't always catch everything posted in a thread.

[Forsakia]

Is Elvis as a cause of the problem (and hence worthy of criticism) or a symptom of it though?

A symptom. Has that not been clear? What gave you the impression that it was otherwise?

Elvis (amongst others) who were heavily inspired by black musicians gained a lot of their success because black musicians were discriminated against. That is undeniable. But then these stars generally aren't the ones stopping the black musicians being successful, even if they are the beneficiaries of it.

Beyond that complaining that they are influenced by the music they listen to is an odd complaint. With Miley Cyrus the specific question of her twerking (which is separate from how she interacted with her back-up dancer) is not a defence of "it's ok because she has a black friend" but rather a mixture of "she's influenced by the people she's worked with" mixed in with the question of "are the black artists she works with not allowed to share 'their culture' with her?" (and that's leaving aside the point that people are defining this culture separation in black and white terms, when google tells me twerking comes specifically out of southern black culture and hence the use of it by non-southern african americans is itself a form of cultural appropriation.

It's not an issue of who can and cannot do a thing or be influenced by a thing, it's the cultural narrative and the assumptions that are made with it.

But it comes back to the beneficiaries of something not necessarily being the perpetrators. White professional sports players in the pre-integration era, benefited significantly from segregation, but they were not the ones controlling or enforcing the segregation.

That does not mean that we cannot point out the situation and consider its implications.

I think the distinction between Miley Cyrus as cause of problem vs as symptom of a problem have been blurred yes, especially in terms of twerking as cultural appropriation, yes.

[Llamalandia]

A symptom. Has that not been clear? What gave you the impression that it was otherwise?

It's not an issue of who can and cannot do a thing or be influenced by a thing, it's the cultural narrative and the assumptions that are made with it.

That does not mean that we cannot point out the situation and consider its implications.

I think the distinction between Miley Cyrus as cause of problem vs as symptom of a problem have been blurred yes, especially in terms of twerking as cultural appropriation, yes.

Wait is cultural appropriation supposed to be a bad thing or not? I'm not sure i'm clear on where people stand on that. As far as I'm concerned though there isn't really such a thing as we all share a common american culture (assuming youre american)

[Aurora Novus]

It's like they figure "hey, the music of black people is largely accepted now, and it was never ever referred to as things like 'jungle music' or exoticised in the process, I am only aware of how things are now. All I need to know is that it happened, not how it happened. That's not important to me and I can't possibly see a historical pattern. Nope. No siree bob. It happened, ergo it's okay. No need to bother myself with how."

Well to be honest...yeah. That an idea spread into the popular culture isn't a problem, and isn't something to be shamed. How it happened can be an interesting thing to study, but it really doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not it, in it's current form, is a problem. And it isn't.

[Northern Dominus]

Then what exactly is the issue then? Because if it's not "accidental racist" or "insensitivity by omission", then what exactly is the problem?

Here's what you do. Get out from under the sheet where you have reflexively gone to defend Ms. Cyrus from all those mean ol' attackers and actually consider what's being said instead of railing against an assumed bunch of meany heads. It will help you understand what people are saying without having to randomly guess, and guess poorly, as to what the arguments are. Because holy crap dude. I don't even know what that last sentence even implies much less asks. What are we even arguing at this point?

I'm not defending anybody, I wasn't a fan of her performance either, but on the basis that it was crap and odd in general. I don't need to resort to vague obtuse cries of "sorta racial insensitivity but not really".

Unless you can be a bit more specific than the standard Public Enemy argument, which you don't even seem to be fully implying either. You stated that Miley somehow was breaching some sort of "appropriation", but then backtracked and acknowledged that she freely cites that in fact hip-hop stylings as her latest inspiration, so what exactly is the problem with her performance in regards to this vague pseudo cultural/artistic insensitivity you seem to think everyone is blissfully unaware of?

[Viperco1]

I don't see why people care so much its been popping up all over cnn.com for awhile now, not really news worthy in my opinion.

Sexuality at least the healthy version isn't dangerous, nor is mediocre music, or furries for that matter.

As for cultural appropriation

http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/54 ... -patriotic

I think the commenters are representative of many of the people who whine about it. The idea that you can own something that you didn't create and that is infinitely reproducible is absurd(I do not think intellectual property should be hereditary and oppose business method patents as well). Also there's no malicious intent or mockery so this isn't really comparable to minstrel shows.

[Geilinor]

The video is off Youtube now due to a copyright claim. Is there another source?